Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Music and Trauma Podcast
03:02 Elijah Wolf: A Multifaceted Artist
05:57 The Impact of Early Musical Memories
09:09 The Journey to Songwriting
11:51 Mentoring Songwriters: The YouTube Channel
15:01 The Songwriter's Handbook: A Resource for All
18:10 Songs That Saved Elijah: John Lennon’s Influence
20:55 The Emotional Connection to Music
24:10 Navigating Creativity and Mental Health
26:47 CPTSD and the Creative Mind
30:05 The Power of Vulnerability in Art
33:11 Finding Safety in Creativity
35:55 The Role of Music in Mental Health
39:10 The Verve: A Lifeline Through Music
42:06 Radiohead: Emotional Resonance in Music
44:55 The Duality of Emotions in Music
48:04 The Importance of Reflection and Neutrality
50:50 The Journey of Self-Discovery Through Music
54:11 Closing Thoughts and Future Endeavors


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Welcome to the Music and Trauma podcast we are Chris and Teri Potter and are asking artists, musicians and guests what are the three songs that saved you? and exploring what matters to them about music and mental health.

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Okay, well I'm going to start because I want to say that I am nervous today because we are about to interview somebody who's done a lot of this and we are still very much beginners. So first of all, I'm Teri And I'm Chris. We're really, really excited to have with us Elijah Wolf. Hello. Hello. And I'm going to hand over to Chris to give a little bit more of introduction. I'll do a little intro. Elijah is a multi -talented singer -songwriter, author, musician and podcast host.  He's the co -driving force behind the band Gravity Drive, who have released two excellent, critically acclaimed albums. More recently, he's been focused on mentoring songwriters via his YouTube channel, which sets a weekly challenge to write a song about a specific subject. He has a successful podcast interviewing a myriad of interesting artists about the songwriting process. And following on from all of that, he's also written a book, The Songwriter's Handbook, which is full of ideas, resources, and inspiration for anyone interested in songwriting. So welcome, Elijah.

Thank you for such a lovely introduction. So, well, I want to say how's everybody doing? So we're going to give you a heads up on this one. So this is the way we go around and give me a little bit of a clue already. And the first thing I'm to do is go to Chris and I'm just going to say how are you doing? Because I want an emotion word and it's not always easiest. Yeah, I'm a bit, because we're right at the beginning of this one, I'm quite tense. But in about five minutes, I'm going to be quite relaxed. What's the tension about?

What's the tension about? It's about asking the right questions, not stumbling over my words, all of those things really. Okay, I'm going to go next. I've already said I'm a bit anxious. At the same time, I'm also really, really interested because you've got so much insider information and so much that we can learn from you as well. So yeah, I just, I was going to say good. I can't get away with that. So I'm anxious, but I'm also extremely happy to be here with you. Awesome. So over to you. How's that?

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That's great. I feel excited actually. That's the word I'd use and curious because you're two of my favourite people, two people I respect and so it's nice to just have a conversation and the fun for me with these kinds of things is not knowing where it's going to go. Yeah. Yeah. And it's the same as songwriting isn't it? I don't know what's going to happen but I'm here for it. A different energy is going to come into the room because there's three of us. think they call it the synergistic effect. Let's see what happens. Yeah, exactly that. that. Chris, you're going to kick off with some easy-ish questions. Yeah. Let's start at the beginning.

What's your first recollection of music in your life? When did you first become aware of music and it start to have some sort of impact on you? It's quite early. I was in a pushchair in Italy. That's really I was about two years old and it was very hot and I was in a pushchair and my mum was applying sun tan lotion to my face so I remember the smell of that. And over my right hand shoulder over a speaker I heard some music.

and then some Italian people were there like holiday reps or something. They were wearing red t -shirts. And then I heard the sound of Italian voices going bella bella in front of me as my mum was putting sunscreen on. And then I had the opening riff to Everybody Wants to Rule the World by Tears for Fears. Wow. And I know it sounds silly because I was so young, but I literally have a feeling of going, what's that? And hearing that song and sort of knowing at that young age that that's brilliant. And then the memory stops.

But every time I hear that riff, it stokes something inside me. So I think that's the first point of kind of being aware of music. And obviously it's evocative because of the sunscreen and the heat, there's sensory stuff going on. So that was my first memory of music. I kind of feel like the me that I am now was in that baby because I remember thinking that's a great riff. And the way that I listen to music now thinking about riffs is that I know that part of my brain literally when that riff something's in that.

So that's my first memory. That's incredible. Yeah, that is. That's very specific. It's quite specific. That's great. Even down to the holiday reps in the Reds. Yeah, it's really clear. Interestingly, I'd kind of forgotten it till I was about 15, 16. And remember hearing that tune and going, so that's my earliest. But I also grew up with music around the house, so it was around all the time. And sort of growing up, was there music in the house? And who were you listening to? Major influences? So my dad was a songwriter, and he had been offered a record deal.

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just before punk happened, he was doing folk stuff, I think, with a friend and so the deal got dropped because punk happened and suddenly that was a whole different thing. That's the story, that's his story. Changed overnight. Yeah, but we grew up with him writing songs and acoustic guitars and like pictures of Bowie on the wall and like vinyl albums. So that whole musical world was just there. My dad would play Dylan at massive volume all the time. So Dylan was just like a constant. Beautiful. Lennon the Shaved Fish album was there.

Best of Beatles, Bowie, Eurythmics, Van Morrison, very loud as well. And also just radio all the time in the car. That's quite an education. Great education because we would take these trips from Winchester to Yorkshire where my family lives so it's five hours there and back with the radio on. So that subconscious just listening to pop all the time from across the ages was major. I'd have my face against the glass window watching raindrops listening to just everything. So that early influence of just hit after hit after hit.

and kind of understanding subconsciously form and structure and melodies. Like my memory for melodies is something I'll hear in my own writing or somewhere else I hear a melody goes I've heard that before and my brain will filter through all the tracks I've heard and is that they've taken it from that it's kind of an encyclopedic subconscious knowing of melody from just listening to the radio. So it was there all the time and I think really the moment I decided to make it mine was in year seven.

I'd hear music all the time in my head. Other people's music I'd hear it on loop in my head but I became aware about the age of eight that I had music inside my head. It was like something producing itself as it was going so I'd hear a melody and then I'd hear strings and drums and my brain would just create music in my head. So the full production in your head? and it would just go. So I knew that was happening but because music at school was a bit intimidating because of grades and I couldn't get my head around the notes thing

I had basic piano lessons but when it got to keys I was like my brain can't understand that so I thought it's not really for me because there's a respected hierarchy of grades and there's these girls at school, technical and they're really good and then in year seven at secondary school there was this moment where the teacher got the room to stand up and sing and he would decide yes or no are you gonna be in the choir? It was quite intimidating so I had sung and he went yes and was like I can sing.

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That happened to me exactly like that. Yeah, it's funny. then he... Sorry, just but in, but I did that and yeah, was, no, you can't. But it was quite a sort of heavy thing to do to a load of 12 year olds. But I remember going, I can sing. This person said I can. And then he went around the seven groups and who wants guitar lessons? And I don't know why, probably because my dad had done it. I'd made the decision I'm not going to bother with that because of the musical technical thing. And so in my brain, I've gone, I'm not going to do that.

And then my hand just went like that. And he was like, OK, I'll put you down. like, I didn't mean to put my hand up. So then I started learning guitar and found my thing, joined a little band, formed a little band. And they said, someone's got to sing. And went, I'll do it. And I went, I don't know. You did it again. I'm too shy to do that. And so suddenly I was like, I'm a singer in a band. putting my hand up or saying it was, I didn't expect to put my hand up or say something. It was almost automatic response. Yeah. From the age of

Yeah, seven at secondary school, I'm like, I'm a songwriter. From 12 to now, that's what I am. Because you could, because you realised that you could, was that part of it? I suppose I saw my dad do it, so I knew that, he can do it, so maybe I can do it. So you got over that technicality thing of like not feeling like you could actually master the instrument. I think probably I was into the Beatles at such a young age.

I suppose like Nirvana and Oasis and different bands, they would talk about not being technically gifted. Right. And they taught themselves. hearing that was like, OK, I can do that. It's just imagination. And I was very, very into the Beatles. And I could read their books when I was 10. So I knew about their world and imagination and how they made things. So it just became apparent to me, it's just imagination, but with sound. It's true. Because if you imagine something, nothing is created.

Unless it's first imagined, right? So you've become what you are because you imagined it. That's super powerful. Yeah, that's a whole different way of being and thinking, which is that whole manifestation area is an interesting area. Something I haven't conquered, but it's... But I would argue that you already did because you imagined it and you did it and you became it. Yeah, to some extent. But you're right, that Bohemian Rhapsody was an idea. Everything's an idea. The chair was an idea. Absolutely.

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More recently with the Songwriting for Songwriters podcast YouTube channel, what was the motivation for you getting into mentoring songwriters and how did that come about? It all came to me one January driving to my parents house. This idea just happened very quickly. During the pandemic I'd done some co -writing with Chris Difford from Squeeze. I had these group co -writing sessions where you had like three hours to write a song with somebody you'd never met before. It kind of gave a theme.

and then you met this stranger over Zoom and had three hours to do it. So that was percolating somewhere in my head and an art college background of just sort of seeing where something goes. So those are the subconscious things that go on. I think also there was an idea of my income had been coming from gigging a lot on my own and I was a bit jaded by doing that so much. So I was looking for like, is there something else I can do here? And so I was just driving and the idea for a weekly

songwriting channel came about where I'd explore something and put it out there. I loved it. Thank you. Yeah, well you turned my world on its head, if I can just interject a little bit there, because I hadn't written songs for two decades. Right. And, you know, we've got a recording studio in our back garden and I'm married to an award -winning music producer and you came along and went, here's a challenge, why not write a song to this?

Alrighty then. And so I jumped on and I did some stuff that I didn't even know I had in me. And I feel like you did that for so many of us. And there was an opportunity there, and we were saying this in the kitchen earlier, weren't we? An opportunity for so many people to get out of their heads and into flow and produce a body of work. I ended up producing...

eight tunes and not doing anything with them. But I love every single one of them because it was a stage that I was going through and a process that I worked through and I'm having an experience of myself. And I know that you've done that for so many people that were part of that group and that will continue to be a body of work that you've put out, those challenges for other people to come in and work to. And now, of course there's the book. And the book is phenomenal because you just literally open a page and as you did with the challenge.

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You take a topic, but then you break it down, you ask all the different questions and you go away thinking, okay. Thank you. Yeah, it's interesting because it's actually quite a simple concept, but just the idea of feeding an idea to somebody is actually really inspiring in a really tangible sense. Like Teri said, it just takes you from not creating in the moment to somewhere where there's a purpose and you can create something because you...

you've got just a little thread of a path. It's really interesting to hear you both talk about it because I was aware when writing it that it's really simple and I want it to be simple. I want a kid to read it and a professional songwriter to read it. And also I'm definitely not on authority musically or think that I have any right to talk about how to write a song. OK, because I know deep down.

that songs can be about anything at any time and there's not really a rule to how to write a song. that's the point though, isn't it? That is the point. basically somebody could turn to page 32 and read it and actually go, that's a load of... Who the hell is he? That's a load of... But maybe even have a reaction to that which might make them write a song. Yeah, right. That was one of the things when I was writing of like, if someone's offended by that or thinks I'm talking nonsense, even that feeling is relevant to writing a song.

quite interesting because a few people bought it who aren't musicians who don't write music and the feedback was that they just sat there and read it boyfriend and girlfriend and got to know each other better. Yeah pick a topic and let's talk about it. exactly. I'm writing a second one. Great. And it might not be so geared towards calling it songwriting because actually the feedback was this is actually good for painters. There's something going on here which is very simple. My first page for the second one is called A Letter Never Sent and it's based upon the idea of

If you could tell somebody something that you've never told them, who would that person be? What would you have to say? Why haven't you told them that? Is it because you're scared? Do you know something that someone needs to know? Why don't they know it? What is it that's stopping you from saying it? Why not go and write this down? You could give it to them or maybe not. When you think about that, if you're a musician or an artist or not, it might just tune into you this idea of like, actually, I'd need to resolve that thing with...

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My dad, maybe he's gone or there's no relationship or you just can't say that stuff. Yeah. Because they're not going to be able to hear it. But for you as a process, as a person or a creator, what is it that you would tell that person if you really could? Absolutely. So my background with that is kind of from art college thinking. Yeah. Plus kind of a lot of reading self -help books. Yeah. Plus curiosity. just do something and see what happens. Shut that ink in the water and see what happens. Yeah. I guess its simplicity is important to me and to not make it too

lecturing. Creativity to me should be accessed by anybody at any time and sometimes there's a hierarchy. You know as someone who's worked with so many people that are either technically brilliant or not at all but sometimes people that aren't technically brilliant who it's difficult to work with have an idea that a technically gifted musician can't get to. Yeah. So the whole point of the book was just like just think, open your mind up. Yeah and I was going back to what we were saying in the kitchen earlier when you were talking about how things land.

those flashes of inspiration, they're kind of otherworldly, right? So when you have these ideas, it's almost about keeping it as clean and simple and pure as it was in its first iteration when it landed in your head. That's important. I think you've really got to get out of your own way. Yeah. A lot of the time. If I sit down and write a song, like a writer, it's alright, you know, it's average. But if I can get out of the way... Disengage your brain. Just exactly. Then there's something else happens, which is, the purpose behind the pages of just...

Read all this stuff and see what comes up. Yeah, almost shut your eyes. Yeah, you know when someone goes without thinking about it, what's your favourite colour or who's your favourite cartoon character? Yeah. And you'll just think of something and then your brain just goes, and then a whole story comes from that. So we'll see what comes. Cool. I forgot to say, when I did your podcast, that actually helped me quite a lot as well. Brilliant. Did I mention that at the time? I don't know if I did. I can't remember. But I'd spent ages avoiding

pretty much, interviews, TV, radio, you know, it started off with me convincing myself that I wasn't going to do any of that because I don't know, I think I did have some sort of convoluted reason behind it that I was playing over in my head, which was, I can't remember what it was. As time's gone on, it's been, you know, any kind of even press interviews or any of those things, I've just over the last...

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10 or 15 years, I've just avoided them all. It started to come to a head and then you asked me to do the podcast. I was quite anxious about it beforehand. I've been doing a bit of CI work with somebody and it was quite amazing actually. We tackled it in one session and I kind of ended that session and I think it was about a week before we were going to do it. I didn't have any anxiety at all. Great, because you investigated it.

Yeah, it's weird. I didn't have any anxiety about doing it at all in those days leading up. Whereas if I had put myself in that position previous to that, I'd have been like struggling those days before, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, you were the catalyst for that. So thank you very much. That's great to hear. like I said, it was, suppose, because when you know someone more than somebody you don't know.

There's a kind of familiarity which I can relax as well. Yeah, sure. OK, I'm getting the nod. It must be that time. OK, the nod. The nod is the trademark M&T inquiry. So you know that we asked you to have a little ponder about three songs or be spontaneous, entirely up to you. But we're wondering, so out of the three, what your number one might be in terms of, we say three songs that saved you as a strapline, but I like to soften it a little bit sometimes and just give me one song that...

made a difference along the way for you. Okay, so the first one I'll go with is from when I was seven or eight, it's John Lennon, number nine dream. And he just had this impact on me as a kid where my dad had a Plastic Ono band, Shaved Fish, which is like the best of I think. And I put it on one Christmas and heard John's voice and it's quite raw singing 'Mother' and all these songs and kind of feeling almost bad for listening to it because it was so

intimate, the way he was singing about his feelings. And then I just listened to him on repeat and Number 9 Dream in a way just opened something up inside of me, but it's quite cosmic and the sounds really like spectre-ish and beautiful and dreamy and it just opened my head up. Whatever he's got going on there, it's in me. When you're seven or eight and you listen to John Lennon rather than pop or something at that time, because I remember my friends sort of being into, don't know,

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whatever music was going on, but I was like, I'm into John Lennon and this is, he is a huge influence on me for many reasons. And that song is probably my favourite solo John song. And it just brought me to myself in a certain way, safety there, you know, those strings and is one of those songs which is, yeah, that's who I am. And it gave me myself as a kid, you know, it was like this world to go into. It gave me myself as a kid. That's incredible. Let's have a listen to it.

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Unfortunately, right now we haven't been able to clear the license to play this song. When that happens, we'll update this episode to include it. In the meantime, please click on the link in the show notes to hear the song in full.

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my gosh, we've got so much to talk about, Elijah and I, we're loving that song. It's quite an ethereal kind of It is, isn't it? It's ethereal, it's also that idea of the author saying what they want to say. What I love about music is when you feel like you're surrounded by a universe of sound, which feels a bit ethereal and a bit otherworldly. It feels like John's just walking through a song and the song's like geometric architecture or colours happening.

The other thing I noticed about it, that whole end section sounds much more George Harrison than it does John Lennon. Yeah, it does. really does. That's the great thing about the Beatles solo career is actually they're really good friends but they've got this legal thing happening so they're sort of at odds with each other but their influence upon each other is so big. vast. That you can hear on McCartney's stuff sometimes you're like, well that's a John song. It's so imprinted on each other which is amazing. So in terms of that song specifically,

Just trying to get a contrast really, an idea of what it meant to you then and you've touched on some of that, but how does it feel actually listening back to it as well now? What's the feeling that you have? I think it's like the feeling of that magic is possible and that childhood innocence of just being at wonder of a piece of music or a book or a film is really important. Like crying at the end of a film at the cinema or just being blown away. of awe. A state of awe and wonder is something we lose as adults because you've got a tax return to do.

Or you're gonna, you know what mean, or you're gonna Or you don't have time for It's that thing which, because stubbornly and I suppose in some way I'm quite proud of this, I decided I'm an artist, that's what I'm doing. Even if I have to be skint or, you know, I'm doing that because that sense of wonder is more important to me than stability. And it's still that way now. If I'm in a mansion or a tent with a guitar and a notepad, I'm alright. On some basic level, I'm alright. It's that thing at school where had wet time play.

So you didn't have to go and play with all the kids and bullies. You could just be on your own drawing or painting. I'm very happy there. That childhood innocence and exploration and wonder, I suppose it's it's probably quite naive, but it's like who I actually am. That's interesting because you started off before the song talking about it brought you back to yourself. And it's like you're saying a similar thing. It's like, is it the same as an adult now? Does it still bring you back to yourself? absolutely. Yeah, it reminds me of it to stay on track, put me back into that bedroom.

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at eight in the dark with a walkman with those furry kind of wire headphones and it sort of goes, remember, remember him, that's what this is about. That's who you are. That wonder and with your eyes shut and music going on and it feeling like the shapes and colours happening in your head, that's you. That's beautiful. And so that track just takes me back to that innocence and that almost naive commitment to make art.

I've asked that question before of other artists and I'm just wondering as you're answering it, whether there's a sense of, you know when you say you put your headphones on as an adult or you listen to the music and you go straight back into that state of wonder and awe how easy is that? Because you also touched on the fact that, I've got bills to pay or I've got other things going on. You know, I'm just thinking about people sort of listening into this and thinking, well, I wish I could get back to that state of wonder and awe by just by putting my headphones on.

I'm wondering what gets in the way, know, and is it just the day -to -day things? What would be your way of getting beyond that? Do you have any hints? Well, generally for me, like my ideal day from just a purely creative point of view is that I get to pick up the guitar or piano or just write something or draw something. If I do that just a bit every day, there's that commitment every day in some way, but that doesn't always happen. sometimes...

my inner critic will come up and judge myself for not doing that. Yeah. So I developed a system where in my brain I'm always creating something. Of course you've got a I'm always looking out for something or I imagine it as just one big linear thing. even if I don't do something that day, something's being worked out in my head. Which is always moving everything towards creativity. Even if I just play that new song I'm working for five minutes in the car on the way home, it's like, OK, I've done that today.

So there's a bit of that recognition that if I've got to do a tax return or got to go to work and and gig or something or I've got to do the practical stuff. Yeah. You can't avoid that. But I'm in here in my head, in my imagination world. And in a certain way, that is going all the time. And it's developed to a point where it can almost be here now. And at the back of the brain here and here, there's

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is doing its work whilst we're talking. So it's actually listening to that song whilst we're talking and looking for words. So I developed this system that is all going on in there, which is probably very annoying to be around because I'm present but not present sometimes because it's so full on. If I'm writing a new song, for example, and I'm coming towards the last few lines, it's so relentless, the loop of the music that I can feel like I'm being pushed into the floor. And so anything that comes up...

in the real world is almost like, do I have to do that? Which probably makes me a little bit impatient and snappy and intolerant to that stuff. it feels like an intervention into that I just want to do this. It is like naive and childlike. So I guess it's a way of developing how do you allow yourself to be who you actually are whilst having to balance the real world and not letting go of yourself.

What I'm hearing you say is like you're compartmentalizing things in your brain so that you can do the things, but at the same time there's a part of yourself that's almost like keeping yourself in your safe place, which is, you tell me if this is accurate or not. It is accurate. And actually in terms of, you know, aware that this podcast is called Music and Trauma, terms of like, no pressure about that at all. In terms of some of my way of being and stuff that I've been through, I have CPTSD.

And I'm in recovery. So there's like a level of my character which keeps a bit back. Right. For safety. Yeah. And for... You've learned that. Yeah. It's probably the creative mind going and the way I do that is probably a result to some extent of necessity because of life, but also the sort of C -PTSD side of things, which is fear. Hypervigilance. Hypervigilance. Hypersensitivity. Overthinking.

Playing out, suppose I've developed a sense of protection and compartmentalization, which is really useful for creativity, but not a great way to always live because you have to look at survival techniques and protection, but also challenge those things to push through them. But that can be really scary. It's delicate. Yeah. So it's good and bad to do hypervigilance because I can sometimes think I can tell.

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by the way someone moves their eyebrow what they're thinking or feeling. Sometimes that's correct. Sometimes it's like that's manic me. Well you're trained though in hypervigilant state and having had my self complex PTSD for many years and like you come through recovery and those points where...

The triggers that don't make logical sense to anybody else. For example, if we go to a restaurant, I have to sit in a position where I can see everything. And you know, I still to this day don't know where it comes from, but the subtle nuances of I'm looking at you now and if you looked sideways for a minute, those are going to be part of me, the thing he's not interested in anything that I'm saying or he switched off or I'm not safe. It's all about safety. So I'm hearing you say you've got some strategies for yourself and those strategies have just come out of some sense of awareness of it all.

So you've done a lot of work. Well, I've done a lot of work, but it's an ongoing process. I think when you start an investigation or you come to a point where you have to look at something, it can be quite overwhelming and quite scary. But I'm at the point, getting to the point where you can have a little overview, like a record producer looking at a song going, that string needs to come down or that bass needs to be changed. If you become aware of these things, you're able to have an overview and watch yourself.

go into it and you might not be able to stop it, but it's like, think you develop a sense of awareness. Yeah, I love to just bring in at this point something that I use a lot in my work is the power of the pause. It's like having that moment, not to be afraid of the silence, not to be afraid that you're not a part of everything for a few moments, but you're just...

Okay. And then you just get a sense of where you are in your body. Because a lot of the time we don't even notice that our stomachs might be flipping somersaults, but we're you know, from the head up, looking at it all, just getting on with it and trying to do all the things. awareness comes in and you can almost hover over yourself a little bit. Yeah. And we're all a work in progress, we? We never completely get there. Yeah. Absolutely. important point. Sometimes being aware of something's really terrifying, especially if you've got to look at your stuff.

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and stuff that plays out which isn't so great. You don't want to become aware of it. You want to hide from it or not look at it because there's a shame involved. It's difficult to look at your shadow, difficult to look at shame, but I suppose by becoming aware of it you can have a deeper understanding. mean John Lennon for example from that track is somebody for me, why he's also a hero to me is because he was brilliant and great but also there's a shadow side to him. What's great about him is he was aware of it.

and could speak about it. And that's part of his brilliance, really. The most powerful thing about shame is that it's like a veil. It sits over everything. Often we don't even know that we have shame. There's all these feelings beneath. There might be fear, anger, sadness, grief, but it's all veiled with shame. So we can't even tap into it. So as you were saying, awareness can sometimes bring terror and the terror can be very, very real. The challenge is to come to terms with the feeling.

Notice the feeling, sit with the feeling, acknowledge that it is energy that passes through us. That it's never ever going to hurt us in the same way it did when we were that little kid that might have experienced it the first time. That panic that we experience in the present moment with PTSD or complex PTSD is really that terror returning. And if we can as adults sit, acknowledge it, feel it, we will become more comfortable eventually.

It disperses, it releases. It's really interesting what you've just said because some of it just come up as a memory actually based upon what you saying. I've always had trouble to be authentic when I am needing to say something which I fear might make someone angry or sad or upset. And sometimes not to know what the right thing to do is because of what's the right...

way to do this. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, definitely. So I was in a department store when I was about eight or nine and my dad had agreed to meet one of his bosses and his wife. So we were in this department store, like those Debenham things where there's like shirts and wallets and everything. Everything. And also comfortable in those shops, which is probably why I actually, this is all going on now. Are we coming back to our CPTSD? Yeah, so, you know, there's this boss guy who's my dad's boss. So it's like, okay, you need to be respectful to this boss man. This is my dad's boss. I better be a good boy. But part of me thought,

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He's probably rich, this guy. And there's a nice Filofax over there, like he might buy it for me. So there's that. But then out of the corner of my eye, there was a lift that was shutting and a fairly elderly woman had gone to go into this lift, but the doors had kind of closed on her arms. you could tell it wasn't crushing her, but she got a bit stuck. And for some reason, because the boss was there and talking to my dad, I didn't feel I could break this conversation to say there's an old lady here who needs some help. What a moment.

So I was then felt really guilty that I didn't say this, someone sorted it out, but I could see it and knew I should go and help, but feeling really bad about not helping this woman and then feeling bad that I knew it was happening, but I didn't have the courage to say this person's stuck. And it's such a stupid memory. again, it kind of goes back to the book where if I wrote something called The Lift, have you ever had experience of The Lift? comes up? Like that, I've just told you all this. So then it's...

or maybe there's a piece of art to come from this, you know? But it's those kind of really small things when you look at C -PTSD or Compassionate Inquiry where you become, I have a fear of speaking out because of these conditions around if I speak out, the boss might be angry or my dad's reputation might be, so I struggle with giving myself the right to have a voice. That's been a lifelong thing and has become.

at points very destructive because I've not allowed myself to do that and that's kind of part of that. That's a lot and I would ask you how does it feel actually saying that out loud now because that obviously came to you just from something that I just shared and it was a very real thing that just landed and I wonder what's in that for you and how does it feel to kind of revisit that right now? I knew this kind of stuff might happen and part of me was listening to you speaking and felt quite anxious but god that's just come up and I want to say it.

But part of me was going, don't say that. Yeah, interesting. And isn't that the pattern? That's the pattern. Then there was a quick bit of body wisdom where I thought, I need to say this because it's going to sit with me through the day and not feel great because of the trust of knowing you two as friends. It's like, OK, say it and see what just say that because this is what this podcast is about. And yeah, and now you have. And how does it feel? Good. No, no, no, no. feels... You can't use it good.

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It feels bit indulgent but also intimate and... They're both actually perceptions rather than feeling words. Emotions. Am I looking for an emotion? Yeah. I feel safe. You feel safe? Good. It's not an emotion either. It's still a perception. I feel calm. Is that an emotion? Yeah, I'll give you that one. Okay, I feel calm. Yeah. Safe not an emotion? No, suppose it's not. No, it's a perception. I feel safe. That's like... I'm imagining I'm safe, But I feel calm.

Yeah, that's how your nervous system might sit. Okay. What does calm feel like in your body? I'm just sorry if I push you too much on this thing, you can let me know. But this is just what I do. We're on a couch. Yeah. Well, what does it feel like to be calm? I'm just interested if it's okay to unpick this a little bit, because you went through an anxious state and then it was your pattern emerging of like, I'm not going to say this. And then it's like, no, no, no. Got into your body. I'm going to say this because I am in a safe place.

and now you have and there's a sense of calm. You've just been on an entire journey in like a couple of minutes there. That's one of a million journeys in a day. know right? Don't we all do this? All the time? All the time? I'm picking on you because you're talking but I mean we all do this don't we? It's exhausting! Can you imagine how much we need to rest? I do sometimes think does everybody do this? Because it appears like some people don't.

One day we're going to put you in the chair and you're going to interview Chris and I and we're going to do this the other way around. Absolutely. You're going be a guest presenter. Totally, 100%. We've got all of this stuff going on all the time and whether it's tension in our stomachs, whether it's in our chest, whether we're short of breath, whether we've just got sweaty hands or whether all of these things are going on. And that was a lovely example of just a cycle of all of it and how human that was, you being so open about that.

is gonna help a lot of people. Maybe. I've been listening to a guy called Tim Fletcher and he talks a lot about CPTSD and when I first listened to him I was like, my god, this guy's literally unveiling every thought I think, every sponsoring thought. And I sort of felt I'm screwed. Because the first, he does these 10 hour things about anger in CPTSD or shame in CTPSD and...

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He sort of says, it's going to be bad for a while, but wait for end of the 10 hours and we'll get to the tools to going through it. So you listen to this stuff going, so screwed. But it's really illuminating and enlightening to hear this stuff. My friend's a musician and his father is a musician and he was selling some headphones and I needed a spare pair of headphones. So I got in touch with him and said, I'll buy those headphones. And so we arranged to meet on one day and then I couldn't do it because I was late for something else.

arranged to meet another day and I couldn't do it. So the third time I was going to go meet him, but I was going to go and do a gig somewhere and I had like a 40 minute window and I wasn't late, but I became aware that you could be late here. He was cool, canceling the meetings. to me, driving into the street, I was sweating, heart was going crazy. I didn't even need the headphones. Okay. It was just like this idea that I was going to be unreliable put me into this really bad situation where I got them and then, just chill out. It's cool.

But that 10 minutes going into it was, why am I so affected by this situation? Yeah, did you get an answer? Well, it's because of the judgement of feeling like I'm going to be unreliable or I'm not good enough or I'm late or... That will have started somewhere. Yeah, and it's just manic. Really, it's just chill out, you don't need the headphones. Yeah, what you grew up with and what you were around, it just imprints. And the panic and the fear, it's all completely out of...

Yeah, not out of control, but you know. think also because I've been brought up from the north of England and part of it's like man up. So there's that voice in my head as well. I'm like, at you getting all indulgent about headphones on a podcast. It's like very judgmental. You know, it's like, Jesus Christ, people listening to this. You're having a kind of little meltdown about your anxieties for being late. But it's also like accepting that as well. It's an interesting area. But I think for me, what I've learned about CPTSD is this stuff goes on.

And it comes from some trauma and I just have to make friends with it somehow and it's a process, you know, monitor it. It's also disseminating that story because the story becomes, yeah, okay, you've got all of this judgment around, my goodness, you know, it's only a pair of headphones. But you know, the point is there's so much suffering that goes hand in hand with that story and if we can just get into the story and break it down and see it for what it is, the more we look at it, the more we can separate ourselves from it and we suffer less. There's a lot of vulnerability there, thank you.

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That's huge. Well, I think as well as the purpose of an artist or songwriter is to delve into those areas and try and get it out in some way. mean, whether you're record producer or a songwriter or a painter, the world that you take into your ears and eyes is your inspiration. I suppose in a way you are the canvas. You're a unique point of perception. There's no one like you. So create. So do your art.

I think doing stuff is important. My dad certainly was very like, up and get on with things. I've got that about me, which I know in Aries I can be quite strong -headed. Sometimes stuff I create is literally, the idea is good but then discipline kicks in. I suppose because I've been disciplined, it has got used to discipline. So discipline can be seen as a negative thing but it can be really good. So I go through this period of writing all this instrumental piano stuff under the name School of Thought where I...

Because the process in the band was very detailed and focused and quite thorough, I needed something which was the exact opposite of that. was instinct. Just like do it, release it. So I came up with this idea that when I came home from a gig or something, I would sit and compose a piece of music and record it and release it within that night without any editing or thought. I just need to go bang, bang, bang and have no expectation, have no need for it to be played on radio. Just go bang.

the exact extreme of the other way that we work. So when I recognised I need to do that, this is calling to me, need to do this thing. There was again, there was that fear of like, am I allowed to do that? Because I'm in the band setup, know, am I to, is it okay that I express this? And of course it's okay. So when I recognised I need to do it, it was the discipline of I'm going to do this by this date, I'm going to do one a week, there is no editing, those are the rules, those are the parameters, and I'm going have an EP out by this date, then I'm going to do another one and another one.

until I've got that out of my system and then it's out of your system. But the great thing about creating that and just going whatever is it finds some audience somewhere. Yeah, does, yeah. I remember one night not wanting to do it and there was a star in the sky called Capella, which is this star that comes up, I think it's in January, I think, where it flashes green and red. I think it's two stars behind each other but it's a constellation name. So I called the track Capella but I remember that like going, I can't be bothered to do it tonight. But my discipline side went, you are doing that and if you don't do it...

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you are letting yourself down because you say you're an artist. So again, the good side of the critical voice is like, John Lennon would be doing it. So if you want to go to bed and go to sleep, fair enough. But someone else in this world is creating me, which is if it's left unkept, that voice is really absolute. But I went and did this tune and then it ended up on the Spotify playlist, which is like thousands and thousands and thousands of plays from just this star. can't make myself do it. So deadlines and discipline sometimes is like as creative as

having loads of time. It's definitely important though. It wasn't a driving force behind getting me involved in production, but there's something about putting a full stop on the end of the creative process, getting to the end of it. It's quite easy sometimes to get into a mindset where you're doing something creative and it's going to be great when we do this, you know, when we do that and after we've been through this process, it's going to be great. And it's quite easy to avoid the full stop on the end of the...

whole thing but there's something important about the focus and the discipline needed to get that full stop on the end of the... I totally agree. That was the great thing about doing these co -writing things with three hours because there wasn't time and you'd be presenting it to some pretty big songwriters so you're like we've got to write this song I don't even know this person and you've got to accommodate this other person and their needs and there isn't time for the indulgence things like instincts now write it now as much as you want to create a space for the other person and be nice

What are you good at? What is the best tune? If your tune's better or idea's better, go with it. But you need to be polite about it, but be strong about it. so there needs to be a song by 3 o 'clock. And you don't want to live your life with that ramp up stress. the full stop is as important as the first mark. And in a way, people are scared of the full stop because then they go, is that what I meant to write or say? Have I done enough thorough work on it? I get that because you've got to be Sherlock Holmes about things. But also it's like, come on.

you know, a daffodil happens and then it doesn't happen, right? It's still beautiful. It's not always the perfect daffodil. Just allow it. Allow it, finish it. Let it be. Let it be, Let it be. And that leads us into your song number two, think. Tell us a little bit about this. Is it another song that's helped you through? This is a song at the moment which is helping me through actually. And it's a song called Daydreaming by Radiohead. And I find it quite hard to listen to because I get quite emotional listening to it.

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But Thom Yorke to me is a genius and he has a way of push and pull, release and sort of intimacy and openness, which is in this track. It feels quite unnerving at the beginning and quite claustrophobic and quite deep in a way which is like, I don't want to look at that. And then it opens up to something more beautiful. And it's helping me because, or it's saving me if you like, because it feels like someone else has gone through something. I think that's the great thing about music and songs.

a chance to find yourself in someone else's work. They've been through something and it helps you. The open line is, dreamers, they never learn. I think that's such a good line because it's so cutting and so true in a way. know, because dreamers sometimes don't learn. You're kind of in your thing thinking it's going to happen and it might not. And there's a full stop to that. So I quite like the beauty of these lyrics and the beauty of the song, but also in a way the reality of what he's saying. So that's why I picked it.

you

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Sadly we're not able to play this song right now due to a delay in the licensing process. We intend to update this episode as soon as possible, but for now, if you can, please pause the episode and click on the link in the show notes to enjoy the tune in full.

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It's an interesting tune that, isn't it? He's always so authentic. He's hyper aware of himself, I think, as a human and creator. He's been very influential to me as a piano player. He said a really good thing the other day that he realised that at a certain point, the bit he was trying to hide from everybody, the insecurity or the vulnerability was the thing that everybody actually was into. Yeah.

and then when he realized that he was able to go into it more. Sometimes that song Mother by John Lennon, sometimes I get it with Neil Young as well actually. And with Tom Yorke it's a bit too intimate. A bit raw. A bit raw. And sometimes that feeling can overwhelm me a little bit, particularly the start of that. It's almost like music and sometimes emotions or conversations can be like, I'm not sure I can cope with this. This is like a flooding of kind of a feeling. I tend to go into a...

state of almost dissociation or needing to ground, which sometimes can be physical, which is like, need to brace myself for what's coming here. Whether it's music or words or conversations, that does it to me, that track, but because of when the chorus almost goes major and sort of opens up into something more positive, it's like, it's okay, just get through to the chorus. But the verse is as important as the chorus, the dark or the shadow or the night is as important as the day and the growth and flowers. We are in a dualistic hologram.

When you're saying that, I want to ask, how do you feel about the feelings? You get a tune like that and it takes you on a journey like that and it gives you an opportunity. So I hear you saying it's overwhelming. Your system gets overloaded in a way. Can that be a good thing? I think musically and with art it can be. Because I think within the premise of I'm listening to art or music, you're allowed to experience emotions.

For me, the feeling of emotions flooding, if it's to do with like a conversation or intimacy or at a certain point of conversation, when I feel those feelings come up, for me it's like quite difficult. And I can go there if it's safe, but if it's not safe for whatever perceived reason, which might be imaginable in my head. Could be you're being evoked for good reasons. Yeah, sometimes they...

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There is that you can be provoked or evoked for good reasons, but sometimes that can feel unsafe and that's fine because you get through the unsafe to be like, actually that was important to me. Like you were talking about the CI inquiry into talking on interviews. So there's a positive, but I do think as well there's times where it's not safe. But what is safety for you? Safety is to me the idea of not being judged even if you have things that maybe even should be judged. Yeah.

within a certain parameter of what society expects, I guess, but there's like a kind of, people talking about shame, it's like, I guess being found out for not being good enough is like, or doing something which is...

represents the shadow side of yourself, which I think sometimes we're not even aware of ourselves. I guess if that gets illuminated for whatever reason, that's really scary. Having this shadow side, having those dark spots and how we feel judged when stuff hits our stuff. Gabor Maté he talks about the theory of holes. You know, we've all got the holes in ourselves from our upbringings or from experiences and...

Coming into safety, we can't always guard ourselves from the stuff that hits our stuff. If we've got wounds that are open, if we've got stuff that we haven't yet understood, I wonder what other possibilities there are for keeping ourselves safe in those situations. I mean, for me, guess communicating the fact that you're struggling with something right now is important. think radically accepting that is good. Meditation, that can definitely shift things for the positive. So you have a meditation practice yourself.

Yeah, my meditation practice is that I've got a playlist, I put it on, I meditate for half an hour maybe once or twice a day. I'm aware that that isn't like meditation in terms of like, I don't feel like it's official meditation. It makes my body feel like it's connected to something. I think I trip a bit when I meditate and see things and have a little by location adventures. You disappear from this form based world for a while and have an experience of your own. Yeah, so that helps.

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And then also like exercise, I think is really important and doing the thing you love like playing guitar, playing music is a release. So it's like, I think there's ways to release a bit. What happens if you don't? Does that ever happen by the way? Because there'll be creativity going through my brain. it will be happening. There is like sometimes if I feel like I've done a week's worth of practical admin stuff, it's like, Yeah, you feel it in your whole system. Got it. What about you though, Chris? Because you've got a job in which...

you have to be quite practical and quite on top of things because it's part of your job, Processes, deadlines and work and then there's creativity in that. Actually the real world of being organised is important to what you do fundamentally but then there's the creativity so do you get that sense of needing to be creative within? Yeah I think that in an ideal world we'd all wait around for, how do you explain to me, by somebody once where there's like a rail of...

creativity and you're able at certain points you're able to hook onto it. And other points where it's a bit unreachable. Yeah. And I think in an ideal world, you'd be able to wait around for all of those moments where you can hook onto the rail. But the practical realities of creativity quite often don't allow you to do that sometimes. Yeah. yeah, it's a bit of a tricky balancing act. So back to that song, I'm just wondering like...

Is there anything sort of specific, you when you first heard it, that really sort of pulled you in? There's a video, I saw it first, the video on YouTube, where Thom is walking through lots of different doors, looking for something. And then he just sort of climbs up to a hill where there's a little fire and sits there. Quite often for me, videos, or even the way an artist will look, will get me. So that video, when it came out, I was like, wow, that's great. Listen to the album, and sometimes, I don't know you get this bit, I listen to some albums and go like...

That's amazing, can't handle it right now. And then it'll come back around later, and it's come back around later, that album, right now. I guess we don't ever really know why someone writes a song, but I know that his wife passed around that kind of period. Or his ex -wife passed around that period. So I think he's sort of going into something there. There's kind of depth to it. When I was growing up, my grandmother had MS, and it was quite bad.

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And so we grew up with a gran who was beautiful and brilliant, but she couldn't talk. And so sometimes you'd be listening to her kind of try to say something and she wasn't going to ever say that thing. that's up. So growing up watching someone try to say something which you knew was not going to happen as a little boy is kind of quite shocking to see. Yeah. She was going to get worse and passed away. I think I was like 10. So I remember going, I can't go to that funeral.

because I can't handle the level of emotion within me and to be in that level of emotion, I can't handle it. So I stayed with a friend instead and took the protective survival route. And so that song, maybe it's because I presume he's writing it from that point of view about her. There's a fragility and reality to those opening chords and the idea of dreamers never learn, like a finality to. So it feels a bit uncomfortable for me, but also it's necessary.

It's really over -analyzing this. It's perfect. And the fact is, things draw you in for a reason and it might just be exactly where you are in that moment. And what's funny is over the last two or three weeks, I've listened to that album quite a lot and the first track's really more anthemic than that happens straight after. And I've been resisting that song for like two weeks, three weeks. So that's been the thing of like, what's going on with you? That's interesting. Maybe even just talking about it now has made me understand why that piece of art is impacting me right now.

And I think art and music does that. They twig in your brain or someone catches your attention because you've worked something out. What's this about? Yeah, catches you. listen, that was a really big one for you. Yeah. So we're on to number three. The band that saved me time and time and time and time again are The Verve, as I'm sure you're aware. I mean, the amount of times their music has really restored me. And it's for many reasons, because I think they're a really interesting band, because you've got the songwriting element, which is very strong, but the

band as a band is really strong and each element is like a kind of force or compass point, they're all as strong as each other and so I have been obsessed with them I think really for a long long time and I got to know this song because there was an Ashcroft front cover in Mojo magazine around the time of Alone with Everybody where he was talking about the new record and going back and talking about some of the other records.

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And I had all the other stuff in the EPs, but I hadn't brought Storm in Heaven yet. So was about 19 at art college. He spoke about this album being a bit of lost classic. So I went and got it. And I remember being at art college with loads of friends actually just talking about life and put the headphones on, thought I'm going to listen to this. There was probably a bit of an illegal substance around at the same time. And it opens up with Star Sail, which is just this chord. And then this thing happens. And as soon as I heard it, it was like...

Everything that's inside my head is in this piece of music. Every way they go, every chord that they play, every note, every bassline, drum beat and vocal melody sounds like the internal system of my imagination and head. And I want to live in that place. I almost don't want to make music like it because I can't. So I want it to remain mysterious and be this kind of world I can walk into. And time and time again, that music, that saves me that track. McCabe is...

a genius. has this connection to fluidity of sound, which is just beyond anything. People that like that song or know that song, I feel like they know me intimately and I know them intimately in a way, is like a mysterious, private, safe look at the universe. It's ethereal and massive and delicate. The sound of heaven and hell and colour, it's got everything.

The reason it saves me is because I listen to that album more any other album, it's my favourite album. It just restores me back to me. It's the sort of thing I put on late at night and just float off and go to where I need to go to. Let's have a listen.

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Unfortunately, right now we haven't been able to clear the license to play this song. When that happens, we'll update this episode to include it. In the meantime, please click on the link in the show notes to hear the song in full.

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So that song met you when? I think I was 19. Foundation year at art college. Finally feeling like I was fitting in. Like I'd found my people. Like I was an artist, other people were. And so it was like a hedonistic time but also a time of finding my tribe. You know, a lot of communal experiences. Like I said, it just was like... Yeah, yeah. You know when you become a fan of someone, it's like I was taking the mick out of myself because it's sort of ridiculous.

Why? The levels of fandom. They just are like water to me at that moment. It just washes through you, it just becomes so oxygen, whatever that dynamic is, whatever the hell's going on, you know, it just works. How is it now? Is it the same as when you first heard it? That's the thing, it's the same with Bittersweet Symphony because I nearly picked that but then for other reasons I didn't. But that just goes smack. So it's like the refresh thing. So it just takes me backwards and forwards.

You know when you get like a salad after a pasta? Or like a drink of water after a hot day or something? It just goes back. That's an element of what it does to me. You know that Frank Zappa thing about talking about music, like dancing for architecture, it's that kind of thing, but it's big. I feel that we can't touch on a Verve track without bringing Chris into the conversation at all. you know, you must have some ponderances here and some questions for Elijah at this point.

You know, Urban Hymns is a record that most people would know of theirs, but both the first two albums are, yeah, magical in their own separate ways. Three incredibly different records. Four. Four, of can this be three? Whoopsie, had to edit that bit out. But I know that you were massively involved with that, but it's like, the thing is, if you take those four records, they're all, like you say, so different. Yeah. And stepping stones as well. I think the first one...

Yeah, that has that ethereal, otherworldly quality to that record. And the second one is just super dark. Yeah, it is. It is super in a great way. But it's also that thing in Urban Hymns which kind of started tapping on Northern Soul where there's oblivion and ecstasy, there's hope and there's dark. Because Urban Hymns, people automatically think of the singles. Yeah. But the beauty of the album is, as well as the singles and big songs, there's quite a lot of...

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dark, far out stuff going on. Yeah, there's a lot of jamming going on. Yeah, that record's pretty involved. How has it helped you, that song? How has it helped me? That's a really good question. How has it helped me? Just before you do, just before you do, that song actually does make me feel a particular way whenever I hear it. wholly sure, you know, I started this sentence without knowing how I was going to finish it.

And every time I hear it, it makes me feel that particular way. it's a bit, okay, it's a bit euphoric, but it's also got melancholy to it. So it covers a few different areas. That's how it is. How does it make you feel? Well, it makes me feel euphoric and melancholy at the same time, which is quite... You're right about that. It's just feelings at the same time. But to answer that question, how it helps me, I think...

Well, in a way what Chris has said is that it helps me access that actually, it helps me access those feelings. I think sometimes the feelings that you can get like a dichotomy of feelings in life, that you can feel happy and sad. It's true. And you can feel sort of tense and calm and sort of excited and nervous. Yeah, exactly. I quite often get that where, you know, how can you be feeling two extremes at the same time? It's like, well, quite easily. So it helps me access

That area Chris has spoken about, it's hard to sort of quite decipher. Just moving on a little bit. This is a really big question. Go for it. This can be as out there as you want it to be or as intimate as you want it to be. Your thoughts, really. It's not a question so much as I'm just pondering your thoughts about music and mental health in the same sentence. I think they're very joined together. I think music can really help restore your mental health. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?

Because I think sometimes when you're experiencing something, communication with someone else is not what you need. Right. And you need space. And I think sometimes music or a song can be the only thing that can actually deliver you or understand you in that space or cuddle you in that space or heal you in that space. lovely. I mean, that thing of dementia patients where they can't remember anything when they a piece of music and it's like, obviously it works in certain way. You see it sometimes if you put disco on. Like, unless you're a complete, you know...

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It can really change the mood pretty quickly. Not that disco is the answer to melancholy, but I actually find if I'm in a certain space which would be considered anxious or depressed or whatever, I need to go and listen to music which is almost anxiety driving and depression. So it helps you sit in those feelings and kind of just Absolutely. Sit in it and be alright. Rather than cheer up music or something which is like, it's two primary colours right now. Music is mental states put into sonic language.

So I think the two things are really super combined. I think music's really important. I mean, you know, I'm sure most songwriters feel like this, it's just like you only have to listen to like the words and music and notes of what you've created to go like, you want to what my mental state's like? There it is on record, go and listen to it. I was thinking about this on the way going, not sure I'm that great at life, but I know the stuff I've created is probably who I really am. There was a certain point last year where I couldn't listen to music. It was like, I can't listen to a thing.

it's going to make me feel things I don't want to feel right now. And I started to place it was like, no, get it off. Is that because the emotions were too raw? Yeah, just in the state of absolute overwhelming. It's like I cannot afford this moment to be taken into a space of emotional overflow. I got you. So I'm going to have to like block out all. So your tool in your toolkit was to withdraw. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes I think with isolation and withdrawing is quite important. It's a safety mechanism. Yeah. And making that OK.

Not making that wrong. Yeah. I mean, the hermit is an archetype, right? Yeah. It's in the tarot. If you're a creator, you definitely need to be in the hermit state. Yeah. And I think if you're looking at anything which is deep and maybe involving trauma or self -actualization, you're going to need to be a hermit sometimes. Some of the time, yeah. And that's absolutely an archetypical thing that I think we'll go through.

Maybe it's like five minutes peace and quiet or kind of... Yeah, or a duvet day. It's like, you know, sometimes it's just like, no, let the world take... A lovely friend of mine gave me that expression. She knows who she is, Joanna. You just let the world take a spin without you. Can that be okay? Like it took me a long time and I suddenly got there to be able to... I actually need to go and just lie down or something. Yeah. Because the guilt thing comes up of like, you're lying down, -critical comes up. Right, exactly. You know, you're wasted. So it's like I've found it very difficult to take a day off.

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or time off. Because I think as well, maybe you find as well, like, as a creative, it's like, it fuels who you are. The need to create is quite compelling. Do you find it sometimes hard to get off that? Definitely. Yeah, definitely. Like almost like the fear of stopping work is anxiety driving sometimes. Yeah. I go through different phases of that. Sometimes I do find it easy to step away, but other times it's not. I can't do that.

Now a lot of people find that really challenging. I find it more challenging than you. But once the door's gone and we've left the building, you're just like, okay. I definitely relate to that thing of, know, if you're in the process of working on a record, I can come out of here and go into the house and sometimes, not always, I won't want to hear other music because you've spent, you know, 12 or 14 hours listening to it and focusing and kind of crafting and chiselling. I think I exist in that state quite a lot. This is weird. Music for me is quite private.

In my car, for example, if I put star sail on and somebody didn't like it, it would be like, it would be difficult. I didn't ask for your opinion. Don't you hate it when people get in the car and you've got your music on and then, I've just got to turn it off? Yeah, like you said, I didn't need the judgements on it. just need to be with it. OK, so coming to the end. So I'm just wondering how you're feeling. know how I can't give you anything but feeling words. guess I'm feeling neutral. It's like we've been on a journey together, calm and quite neutral.

Will content cover it? Yeah, content in my neutrality. Let me just finish with this last story because this is great. There's a really good story about a Chinese farmer. Him and his son have a farm and they grow turnips and the old man's plough breaks and they make money off these turnips. So the son says, Dad, this is a disaster. We're not going to be able to plough these turnips. We're going to make no money. And the farmer says, well, you know, I can't call it.

disaster dad and he's like well you know this is what it is I can't call it if it's good or bad I can't call it so the next day their horse who they work the land with then runs off and the son again is like this is a nightmare the villagers come round what are you gonna do there's gonna be no food you can hit poverty the son's crying and the farmer says I can't call it what's happened has happened I can't call it

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The following day the son opens the door to see the horse coming down the hill with ten other horses. And he opens the gate and all the horses come into the paddock and he says, Dad, we don't have to plough turnips anymore. We've got horses. This is going to be easy. We can make loads of money and it's going to be great. We could even sell some horses and race them. And Chinese farmer again, I don't know why it's Chinese, but the farmer then says, well, I can't call it. But it is what it is. The following day, the son comes out.

and he's trying to tame a horse and gets kicked and breaks his arm. So now he's scared because his Chinese father, dad, I think he's Chinese as well, this son. His dad hasn't got the strength to deal with the horses, so, you know, it's disaster again. And his father says, I see what you're saying, son, but I can't call it. The following day, some Samurai's come down the hill on horseback and say, we need your son for battle.

Men of a certain age need to come and join us to fight the army. So we need your son. He's got to enlist. And the Chinese farmer says, I would give you my son, but he's broken his arm. So he's not going to be able to join you. So they go and check him out and say, he's legit. He's broken his arm. He's no use to us. So the Samurai army get back on their horses and drive off the gate. And in that evening, they face complete oblivion to the Chinese army that wipe out the whole Samurai unit. Obviously, the lesson of the story is good and bad are

judgements, state of neutrality about things. This is going to pass, this too shall pass, which is in recovery. The bad situation will pass and the good situation is going to pass. So don't commit too much to the negative or positive because it's going to change. So to be in a state of neutrality or acceptance without too much emotion is actually sometimes quite a good place to be in because it frees you from the drama or the mania or reaction to what's going on. And that's for me what I suppose.

because you asked what neutrality is, it's just like, I'm without judgment of what is going on right now. Great story and a great state as well to be in. I love that neutral is something to aspire to. Yeah. What an amazing guest. Amazing. you would be, but that was mind blowing and we went to a lot of places and that was really, really incredible. We've got a couple of things just to do. Yeah, we do. We do. We want to know, you know, how people can find you and...

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We've talked about the podcast, we've talked about the book and we just really want to point people to those because there's so much there for people and it doesn't matter whether you're an accomplished singer -songwriter or whether you're just somebody who's never done it before who just wants to maybe tackle some poetry, just pick up the book and take a look and just... Yep, it's on Amazon. It's called The Songwriters Handbook by Elijah Wolfe with an E actually for Wolfe and the podcast Songwriting for Songwriters is on Spotify and YouTube.

My band, The Gravity Drive, is thegravitydrive .com, but all on Spotify and everywhere else. All of my piano stuff's called School of Thought, so there's lots of piano stuff on Spotify. Great. Also, if you do find yourself enjoying any of these episodes, please consider making a small donation to the charities which we're supporting, which are Nordorf & Robbins Music Therapy or Youth Music UK. Links are on the show notes. We just want to ask what song of yours that you've chosen to play us out today and the other thing.

I don't think we've spent enough time on, and that's just always the way of it, isn't it? You always miss something, but something really, really important is the Gravity Drive. The music that you've managed to produce with Ava is absolutely phenomenal work. Please, everybody, check that out too. And in fact, I believe you're going to play us out with one of those tunes to Yeah, I think we'll pick something that Chris was involved with. And so I'm going to pick Shooting Star because the reason being is...

The Wildlight's full of different kind of songs, it's like ballads and it sort of mood shifts but Shooting Star is there's great vocals from Ava and also there's a bit Chris did and there's like a Chris-ism in that track. Is there? What is it? And it's my favourite bit of the entire record where you just allow a delay on one word to bounce and I remember the first time hearing it I go like, there it is.

The great thing about working with other people is that quote about what you lose in control, you gain in collaboration, which is a good one. didn't see that coming. it's just Chris's impact. It's all over the record, obviously. And Ava's on the record, and Ryan and co -producer Paul Knight, and John Davis, rest his soul, the mastering engineer, who made a massive impact to it, actually. The contributions are there, but as we're here, with

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Mr. Potter and Mrs. Potter, think I'll choose Shooting Star. Every time I hear it, I think, thanks, Chris. Because that element was like, I was kind of looking for that somewhere in my head when I was 15. And you just delivered it. And I don't know why or how you did it. But you just, you've managed to get the thing I was looking for there. Let's hear it...

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Okay, here's the legal stuff. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. We are not licensed therapists and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, psychotherapist or other qualified professional. See you next time.