Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Music and Trauma Podcast

03:12 Early Musical Memories and Influences

10:09 The Role of Music in Emotional Healing

20:31 The Journey of Creating Music

30:09 Exploring the Impact of Songs on Emotions

40:53 The Connection Between Music and Shared Experiences

52:22 The Power of Music in Understanding Trauma

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Welcome to the Music and Trauma podcast where Chris and Teri Potter are asking artists, musicians and guests what are the three songs that saved you and exploring what matters to them about music and mental health. OK, well, I'm going to jump in. It's us again, Chris and Teri. And today we have the wonderful Adam Phillips with us. Before we go on, I just need to mention that this podcast, Music and Trauma, The Three Songs that Saved You at this point in time.

is just a series of six, which we're to get an idea of how it's received by people and then we're really hoping to return and do plenty more. We've got lots of other guests lined up sometime after the summer. So Chris, over to you. Introduce Adam, please. Adam's an old friend of ours. He's an incredible guitar player. Very kind. With a wealth of experience. He's worked on a myriad of different records and tours.

with artists as diverse as Cher, Tina Turner, Tom Robinson, Richard Ashcroft, a list goes on. Unbeknown to us, and we only found out today, he also has an incredible solo album of great songs that we'll play something from that later. that's very kind, very kind. All that and Father of Three as well, which can't be easy.

Welcome Adam. Beautiful. Thank you for being here and doing this. having me. It's become a little bit of a trademark that I go around and ask everybody how they're doing at the beginning of one of these podcasts. To make it easier for you, we'll do it first. Okay. Do you want me to go first this time? No, it's okay. I'm quite used to you getting bossy about what's in the motion and what's not in the motion. Yeah, I think it's quite good. Well, we'll find out. We'll get feedback at some point, I suppose. Go for it. How are feeling? Okay. So I'm quite tense. I think you were tense last time.

That's okay. can still, you know, it can be an... Is it an emotion? No, tense is no. Tense isn't an emotion. Okay, I'm anxious. I feel a little bit underprepared. I'm sure that's all going to come out in the wash. So in a few minutes, it'll all be good. But right in the moment, be anxious. And are you okay to sit there being anxious? Or do need to take a little walk around the garden? No, no. Are you good? Yeah. I guess that makes it my turn. I got it when you said that you felt unprepared.

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I feel a little bit like that too because this has all come about quite quickly. So how do I feel? feel...

This could get very boring for listeners, couldn't it? I think I'm actually... We'll edit you out, don't worry. Yeah, you can edit me out. I'll make it really quick when I come up with my answer. I am... happy, actually. There you go. Simply happy. Yeah. Go over to I'm probably happy too. I mean, I'm definitely better when I'm working and doing things with like-minded people, which is what I've been doing today. Lovely. It sort filters out things that are always there, making me feel less content and actually...

right now in this room. Pretty content. Little bit nervous. Into the unknown, I don't quite know how I'm going to sound interesting, but let's see. Well, just thank you because we did land this on you and it is a privilege. What I liked was the fact that you were touching on things which matter to me, so I'm happy to talk and...

share experiences and do enjoy talking to people, happy, they're sad, whatever. like listening, like trying to be of some form of assistance. And that's all that this is about really? I think so, It's just about everybody being human together. Exactly. Okay. It's over to you. Sure. So yeah, let's start with something easy. What's your earliest memory of music? Okay. So my mother played sort Scott Joplin ragtime things and...

She was fascinating me and I think she read the music but I had the distinct feeling that she had learned it as well. Allegedly she played a bit in a few pubs and stuff like that. So was probably hearing her do that and I think the sight of the piano in the house was a very early memory for me. It this old looking thing and I used to sit under it and play with it like all kids do. So that was probably the earliest...

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and my mum listening very loudly to lots of music. And what sort of music was that? Very interesting, my parents, both from Wales. think my dad, all his family Welsh, all my mother's side are Welsh. They got married in 1963 and then went to the States on a sort of extended honeymoon and lived in Canada for about four or five years.

brought back all sorts of stuff, you know, and I think that's what I started to listen to, you know, I don't know how common that is. There was a bit of radio, a couple of TV channels when I was a kid, you know, it was a different world. So raiding the record collection really and The Beatles, that was it. Red album or blue album? It was, first of all the blue album and then I kind of went on a bit of a pilgrimage and bought all of them. But I think prior to that,

if my memory serves me correctly, they had a reel to reel and they had brought back Sergeant Peppers from the States on a reel to reel and an album called Yesterday and Today which was only released in America. They had recorded it onto a reel to reel from and brought it back. So I was listening to this reel to reel and it pretty much blew my mind really. And a lot of Elvis, Bill Haley, some country music, but Hank Williams. Later on a lot of Don Williams was played in my

Lots of stuff going on and then I sort of through that made my own little journey. Yeah, so that's leading on to the next question. I became really enthused, I must have been about nine. I remember Elvis dying, that was 77 and I remember that was a big thing so went well he's singing all these songs and now he's dead. And then I got really into these Beatles records and a mate of mine at school told me if I tuned into Radio Luxembourg on a Tuesday night they had the Beatles hour so I got my little AM radio and I listened to that.

and we wanted to form a band that did Beatles songs and I heard Taxman, thought it was George playing the guitar, turns out it was McCartney I think on that. And that's all I wanted to do and so I just started trying to play and didn't really know what I was doing but eventually ended up here. You began on the piano then? No, not really. I played a few chords and stuff but no, not really a pianist. I really started with the guitar. I didn't initially...

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know what I doing because I'm left-handed and I play right-handed. And my cousin had shown me a couple of chords and I sort of, that started me off and then I did get a really good teacher. A chap called Dave Bowen in the West Country where I grew up and he just threw music at me and did that thing that all good teachers should do and just sort of lit the candle. nice. Did it come naturally immediately for you? Some of it did to a point. I mean, I remember distinctly hearing

a 12-bar blues rock and roll progression. And I remember being struck in my bedroom with the idea that whatever was sung over the first four bars, as I would learn it is, kind of works over the next four bars. And nothing much has changed, but the underneath has changed. And I remember that having this profound effect on me. Yeah, you know, that was kind of, there's something in there. that became... simplifies everything. Yeah, and that became a sort of...

bit of a journey for me. Moving on from The Beatles, there were three cassettes that I got. It's a pretty bonkers collection of musics, but there was, yeah, there's a Jimi Hendrix singles album. There was an Eric Clapton compilation album that went back to the Blues Breakers and all of that. And then there was a Santana album called Moonflower. And my world just, it just blew my mind. was just, that's all I did was go to my room and try and make noises. And it took a while to understand.

where any of it was coming from. And I've said this to people now that I'm, you know, my fifties, how the world is so different. Because after that, I went further, but I got BB King Live at the Regal, which is just one of my favourite albums ever. And when I heard these notes being bent, I didn't really know yet how that was happening. wasn't like there was YouTube. Like, you couldn't see it. So, you my brother had a Shadows record.

and I saw that it had a whammy bar, I they must be doing that. Well, I haven't got one of them. What am going to do? And I remember, I must have been about 10, 11 years old, just sitting with this guitar, I bent the string, and it was like this amazing moment, which I still think is quite a joyous thing. I'd rather have had that than, here's how you do it. Yeah. Because there was some sort of quest. Yeah. Discovery. Found the treasure.

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And that's not to not... we've spent the afternoon doing that. Yeah, absolutely. That's not to not where we're at now and I go on there all the time to learn how to do things now but I think at that time it was quite exciting. Just the mystery of it. The mystery. So that's where it all started. Once you'd started learning the guitar, what was the path from that point onwards? Which path did you take? Like any kid really, I wanted to do it and that's the key isn't it? Yeah. And I think I knew quite early on...

through my teacher and stuff. I don't think I was ever big-headed about it because I knew I was a little person in a small town and I could play a few things, but I knew how great I wanted to be. I never really probably thought, I'm going to try and do this as a way of life. But I think through certainly my teenage years, music became so important to me because although I'm lucky that I had a reasonably nice upbringing in terms of food on the table and...

and stuff like that, I had a very tumultuous emotional upbringing because my parents split when I was 14 and there was a lot of emotional trauma, for want of a better word. And the thing that I went to was music, you that was the space where I felt safe, that was the space where I lost all of that, where I could drown out the shouting and everything. So I don't think I ever went, I'm going to do this for a career, but it was really important to me to do it.

And so somehow I ended up doing it. It makes me think of the conversation we were having earlier in the garden when we were talking about not attaching to anything when you get into that zone with something like music and creativity. For sure. That there's not an agenda. There's not anything, there's just you and that music and what it's making you feel. In those moments, yeah. It was very much a safe place for me. You know, I did all the stuff that kids do, I used to lock the door and...

I was in front of a huge crowd doing air guitar. We all did that. So yeah and then somehow I followed it through. I did go to college, I did a diploma in popular music and if I had that opportunity again I would really learn something but at the time I was far too busy just wasting my time in the canteen It's ridiculous, youth is wasted on that.

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Everyone's forced into education when it's just like, such a time to play. It's such a time to play, yeah. I mean, it was brilliant though because it's first time I got to play with good musicians and it was a brilliant thing for me. And how did that process progress? Well, when I finished that I was like, what am going to do now? And I was living in Manchester and I was playing in some bands and in many ways I was enjoying myself really. But I always thought, I've got to try and get down to London. I don't know why. Some inner voice. Got to go down there.

And I couldn't really do it. I couldn't drive a car, I didn't have any money, it was all a bit shambolic really. So I enrolled eventually, I mean skipping forward, I found that this diploma could get me on the second year of a degree. modular degree doing English and music at what was then Brunel University. I thought well that sounds like a good idea if I can get on that and I got on that and I didn't do very much music when I was there, I mainly did English because my diploma had counted a lot towards my music modules.

But the best thing about that was that the campus is no longer there. was right next to the River Thames in Isleworth. And I saw a houseboat for rent and I was going to say you've got an affinity. So I ended up renting that houseboat and many boats later and I live on a boat in the same place. So it was obviously important calling for me. You were supposed to be there. That's great. But yeah, one thing, you know what it's like, just one thing leads to another and I would go and I would go and play any gig I could get.

for whatever I could get. Get back and then go to my lectures. And at the end of that, I was doing some touring with Tom Robinson, amazing singer-songwriter and dear friend. And I thought, know, maybe I'll just sack it off. But I worked out that I could do both. So I finished the degree. So I went straight from finishing there into more work. How did that gig with Tom come about? Well, a musician friend of mine, wonderful bass player called Winston Blissett said, why don't you come and have a jam with Tom?

and it was pretty lovely, from the off really. He became a very important person in my life, love him dearly. A great encourager. Great encourager, so that was your first experience of working? yeah. Certainly in terms of getting on a bus, going somewhere, getting off, playing a show. Getting paid. Getting paid, getting back on. That was probably the first time I was doing that. Before that it was just lots and lots of gigs.

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Can I just ask the question, was it joyful? Like from the get go? When you working with him, it wasn't a job. I was genuinely excited by it. And it's great that you can have those moments. Yeah. And you're still there. And I'm still there many years later. He still employs me. Lovely man. But what a career that you've had and you continue to have. mean, it's amazing that that's just the way I think of it, and I don't know if maybe this is just wishful thinking, but someone once told me the metaphor of the swimming pool, because I like swimming. And when you go to the

swimming pool and it's really busy. It's not like this now because since COVID you have to book your swimming. I know right. But it used to be like, you just dive in and you'd go and sometimes you'd sit on the side and there'd be 18 people going around the fast loop and you're like, I don't have room for me and that. And the worst thing you can do is sit on the side of the pool and think, shall I come back later? Just hoon it in and you'll do about four or five really uncomfortable lengths where you're kind of getting hit by people. After a while someone will get out, someone else will get out.

someone else will realise the pace you're going at. Before you know it, the pool will be accommodating you, doing the speed you want to I'm so on my wavelength. And I just thought, that's kind of is what it's all about, you know, and even music's a bit like that. There's millions of things I can't even begin to do on the guitar. I wish I could. But, you know, somehow if you're bringing your heart to something, if you're bringing your soul to something and your intent to something, most people, if they're the people you want to be working with, will accommodate that.

work with you, I think, believe that to be true. can get a sense of like you stepping into a situation with an artist you've not worked with before and just having that exchange of energy I suppose and just a sense of each other and that's where you've to begin from isn't I think so because you know you've got to spend a lot of time with people, you've got to be able to hang a bit, you know, it's quite important. Especially if you're coming at it from a creative perspective rather than just showing up to work for somebody that's... certainly if you're being employed in that situation.

you're working towards the common goal which is the song and making those things great. It's not about what you think it should be, so you leave that. And if you're lucky enough, someone will eek that out of you anyway, that will get in there somewhere. So tell us about your album that you've managed to hide from us for last 10 years. It's incredible! Yeah, so I think what happened that really was that I had a bunch of songs. There was a period when I was writing a lot

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and I was very lucky that someone helped, Mark Taylor, great producer, helped me. I'd played on lots of his records and he kind of helped facilitate me make that record, largely in downtime. And I really enjoyed the process of making the record. I look back now and I'm very glad I documented that time because I didn't have kids, my life was in a place and we finally put it to bed in about 2015 and put it out. At which point I had my

first child, which is the most beautiful thing that's ever happened to me. But at the same time, sheer panic, how do I put food on the table? I better try and get as much work as I can. But I think beyond that, I hadn't really thought about the process of what it would be like to put your name somewhere and sell something and put your head above a parapet. And I've always found that stuff quite difficult. And the world had definitely changed. It definitely was a bit more, you know, Facebook was

you know, everything going on. And I'm not brilliant at all that stuff. wouldn't say I'm reclusive at all, but I'm quite a private person and I never really feel like I've got that much to say that's that important, you know. Those worries, I suppose, allowed me in some ways to just put it out there and see what happens. And then the truth is, you put it out there, someone will find it. And I am quite touched. I sometimes get a little thing from someone in Arizona who's just downloaded your song for 90p and they nice.

Those songs are just beautiful, just hidden gems. After your kind words today, I'm going to have a stern word with myself and maybe try and do something with it or put some visuals to it or something. I'm quite proud of it in the sense that it captured a whole idea of going from absolutely nothing to something. We'll play out today with a song of your choosing as well. I have to say the first song of yours I listened to was A Song for Every Man.

I felt like this song has been around since the year dot and that many, many people must have covered this song. Well, that's lovely. It was just so familiar, but it was just so original at the same time. Well, that's a lovely thing to hear. So thank you very much. But what I'm really experiencing of you is that sense of how much you give in terms of your music and how much you're there to support artists and make them sound great. I mean, it's so enjoyable, though, when it's right and you're part of something, even as an ensemble, just in a rhythm section.

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when something's amazing, it's the best feeling in the world, you know. You occasionally get these moments where you, which is what I think everyone strives for, when you have left conscious thought, you're just in a sound. You're not even sure what you're doing as part of the sound. I'm going completely off piste with this, but I am fascinated to know, in terms of the different places you've worked, the different people you've worked for, are you happy to mention a few of those favourites? Yeah, of course. For me, I can't really divorce it from the fact that I was reading something about imposter syndrome.

Apparently a lot of people who are pretty blooming good feel that way, you know, and I've probably always felt that way. The joy for me is when that all stops and you just got relationships with people and you can just relax and let the music happen, you know. Which is obviously why your work is so called for, that relationship that you seem to have. I can only imagine, I've only witnessed it with certain people, but I mean... Well, I think, and also what's nice about my sensibilities, because I write as well and I've...

got that side to me. I've always got that to get me out in a way. Like I can get closer to the song, I'm sort of not just listening to what this can do. I'm trying to think about the whole thing. That's so important. Which I think is quite important. Back to what you were saying, Chris, about that record. I think I had to do that record and I'm really lucky that someone helped me do it because I sort of went through quite a few years of being in the wilderness a little bit.

relationship disasters and confidence issues and all sorts of things and I don't really listen to it that much but I'm aware that it's probably about loss that record it strikes me as being pretty much about things which happened to me other things which are a bit more elaborated on and I'm really glad that I've got that documented because I was really feeling those those things and I still do really but I've just got another focus because I've got the joy of my kids and

the almighty wake-up call of having to be an adult. That tremendous shift from like, it wasn't lost on me that the date of the album and Ruben's age, know, it's kind of like, wow, here you are. I mean, there's that chronic introspection when you're artistic and you you have to kind of get out your own way sometimes. That's why you need collaborations, you need people, you need friends, need nudges, need nudges and encouragement and all that stuff. You know, that's what I'm trying to...

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learn now and bring forward to my children and onwards. Yeah, I don't think I said I've got to make a record because I want to hear it on the radio. think I just was trying to make those songs exist. And I knew that it wasn't going to be just the Sideman album of like Bits of Cool Guitar or whatever. It was about those songs and what they meant to me. yeah, I should probably go and give it another listen. Well, you know, I hope that people listening to this will go and give it a listen as well.

That brings us to the first song that saved you. Are you open to sharing that with us? of course. I used to do a version of it and I always used say this is the saddest song I know and I think it is. It's called Weary Blues from Waiting by Hank Williams.

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pretty magical, I think. Amazing voice. Yeah, incredible, isn't it? Yeah. You think about sadness in that context. mean, he's a pretty tragic character and it's bleak, but I don't know why. It makes me feel not alone and it's not analysed. It's not thought about. not like there's no one going, you can't really say that because you're expressing more of a sort of selfish love, you know, because you don't know. There's none of that. There's just...

pure outpouring of I feel this loss. And there's something really beautiful about that. You don't need to analyse it, you're feeling it. You can do that later when you're feeling a bit better. You can go, you know what, maybe I wasn't looking at that situation exactly right. That's what life's about, it? It's nice to hear records like that as well, are just a moment in a room. Completely. It's pretty magic, isn't it? It's kind of like a bit of a...

But it sounds amazing. Yeah, it does. What was the moment that you first heard that? I don't think I heard that through my parents. I actually think it was a friend when I was in my teens. Did it strike you immediately? Yeah, and initially the voice just grabbed me. And it's quite a strange structure that I love. It's three chords, but then he puts this other chord in to make that the chorus. And it works so beautifully. Yeah, I just was taken by... Something spoke to me, I don't know. Particularly that second verse, when he says, through tears, I...

I watch young lovers as they go strolling by of all the things that might have been, Lord forgive me if I cry, you know, it's just like, how many, you know, that's just such a universal feeling. And you could be 15 and it could be your first love, you could be 60 and going through your third divorce, it's not gonna go away that, you know. It's something about the essence of a song like that.

which is so much more than the lyric and the music. It's just something, it is just everything that somebody's almost transmitting, don't you think? Completely. It's kind of haunting as well. It stays with you out there somewhere rather than it's not all in the body even. I don't feel sad when I listen to it. I just feel connected. Right, okay. That's interesting. I connected to important things. So it's not the sort of song that you necessarily listen to when you're feeling sad? It's just catharsis, I think.

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whatever you're going to feel, whatever we're all going to be up against. Been here before. Someone's felt it. Does it make you feel the same way now that it did when you were Yeah, that's a good question, isn't it? It probably does, really. Yeah, I'd say it's pretty similar. You know, sometimes you hear different things in the simplest music, you because you might hear a different little way he sings a line or whatever. But, yeah, it just sounds very profound to me. So you've touched on it, but if you had to answer the question.

how that song's helped you. It would be your succinct response to that if you got one. I think it is that feeling that if Hank Williams could drink a bottle of something and sing that, you don't need to feel ashamed for feeling low. Yeah. You don't need to be embarrassed by it. No. You don't need to feel silly because you've got deep emotions for another human being or a dog or whatever it is. Because for me in my life, I have had...

periods of, to me, intense lows. And they've normally been, you know, the product of a trauma or a specific thing has set me into that spiral. And I've learned, you know, through a bit of therapy and just getting older and to kind of avoid certain pitfalls to make that experience worse than it needs to be. But I can still feel that way, you know, pretty easily. And I try to reset myself to be a little bit kinder to myself, to not go that way.

But nonetheless, when I have done in the past, you know, get that thing sometimes when you've recovered from a situation, you get like a little memory and you go like that, you wince and you think, God, you shouldn't feel like that because those closest to you and dearest to you, they're never gonna make you feel like that. We're all going through. That's what I wanted to come to really. normal. What you're saying is, I think our experience and actually doing this podcast as well has been definitely our experiences. This is everybody, people aren't saying it enough.

And it's just that, you know, we've all had really low times. We've all had the depths of the deepest, darkest challenges. sometimes when we're down there, exactly what you were saying about our song, you feel so goddamn alone. But we're all in it together, actually. And more and more can we just say, you know, I feel like crap and say, I'm not coming to work today. I'm not, you know, why? I don't know. I can't tell you. Can I just have today? I'm listening to you saying exactly that.

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we all believe that we're the only ones in those moments. You do, yeah. And you look around you. Through tears I see young love, you whatever that is, that's around you. And you feel in a different place and that's why it's good to talk about it, because it can be a dangerous place to be feeling like that. For too long. For me, I've learnt, I guess, through those experiences to, you know, try and be as here as I can. So probably not a good time for me to drink beer or... Yeah. Yeah.

have a smoke or something, know, try and be sort of here because you need to be when you're in that place and be kind to yourself, try and eat something. Try and eat something, yeah. It so dull, doesn't it? No, but it's so true because if you've got those really big feelings going on then... It's horrible. When we try and mask them and we try and have a drink or do whatever it is that we do, all we're doing is just squashing them down. It doesn't work. There is actually the solution, I've come to understand, is to just sit in it, actually feel it.

And we talk about music, but for me, sticking my headphones on, listening to the saddest songs, the angriest songs, whatever, but actually let it fester for a while and then get uncomfortable and let it pass. It's okay, because the more we stuff it down and we try and run away from it, then the more it sticks around. Yeah, absolutely agree. I mean, think there's a degree on the scale where you can really affect, you know, that sadness. Being aware, having perspective, having awareness

I think as I say having good people around you, doing the right things, making good decisions. I'm lucky that I'm here and I want to be here and some people go too far. What does safety look like for people? It's not as simple as being in a safe container, I mean in a form-based sense. But who are the people around you? And if there's nobody, who can you lean into? Who can you reach out to? We've got a number of helplines on our website for people, ever anyone's listening, that does feel desperate. Also,

who do you know that maybe you could just have a cup of coffee with and just let it out, let it out because you can bet your bottom dollar that it might not be the same situation for them, but the level of emotions we've all experienced at different times, right? Certainly when you reach points where I always used to describe it as like I'd go to the washing machine or the dryer, my thoughts are just going round in this dryer, you know, and I can't control the dryer.

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It's just going absolutely mad and if I open the door to take a look they all just leap out at me. When you're in that place you've got to put your arms around yourself. That's a really important You're not going to be able to function particularly well at certain things so set yourself tiny little tasks. Because we don't always necessarily find ourselves in safe spaces with safe people. I mean by that is not people that are against you but people that you can't necessarily confide in. be in a fragile place where someone innocently might really affect you so just pay attention at that time.

Give yourself some of that, sit with it for a while, but there's always going to be somebody you can reach out to and have a neutral conversation in terms of somebody really hearing you, actively listening and actually being curious about you rather than engaging in a to and fro with somebody who's just trying to make you feel better. Some people with the best intentions might meet you in that place and go, I'll tell you what you should do. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, It's not always helpful, is it? No, sometimes not.

You know, like say you can look back a lot on this stuff when you get further down the line, you know. Yeah, I just, yeah. But I think when you're in a low place, you've to ride it out. Yeah. It's difficult, isn't it, though, sometimes you, you know, to actually recognise that you feel terrible and then actually do that thing of welcoming that in and feeling it is quite, you know, it's hard. How would you do that in a situation where maybe you were having a really going off piste here, by the way, but that's OK, it's all under the same sort of heading of music and trauma. But I'm just...

really interested in those days when you wake up and the weight of the world on you. What are your things that you, I've got ideas about what I think you might do, but what do you think you do when you? I'll sit and deliberately focus on that feeling and I still don't find that easy to do. To be honest, I've never managed to do it for very long, but I definitely get a sense that when I do do that, it does help to dissipate the feeling.

Yeah, it just starts to dissolve gradually, How about you, Adam Yeah, for me it's always been baby steps with that stuff because there's normally one thing that's set me into that emotional space. There's always a background of, you know, other life stuff that can get me pretty fed up, like every human being, and I'm learning to try and get better at dealing with those things so that they don't stack up. And with those instances, I would probably just try and distract myself as much as possible, whether it would be go and have a swim until I can't.

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stand up anymore. But if it's the specific emotional pain thing, when I feel strong enough, yeah, do exactly that. Try and habituate it, try and say what's the worst that it could be because it does sort of dissipate it. But I can't always do that or I've not been able in the past to do that when I'm right in the eye of the storm. It's come a bit afterwards. I think that's So the eye of the storm I've been more sort of like...

I think we all are, aren't Just cotton wool, please. But there's that sense of like, I've learned to, with a lot of practice, to pause. But we were saying this before, we were talking about it with our kids, right? Where you suddenly go, I'm in this situation. you know, but there's a remembering in you, which is like, I can do this a different way. But it doesn't always come immediately. And sometimes there's some repair that needs to happen. But in those moments, creating a bit of space and then maybe taking ourselves out.

giving ourselves a bit of quiet time but it's hard. The pain I think is there to actually teach us that if we just feel it, it will just do its own thing. It's the mind storm that gets me. That's the worst thing about it. like all the thoughts. just presents things on a repeat cycle. A Buddhist friend, fantastic musician friend of mine, he always used to describe it as a child's, you know, this pop-up books.

and all the things, you could start to get to a point where you see those feelings that are out of control and the mind's racing. It's just like, I've seen you today already. there you are again, you know, and it would pop up at you and after a while you just go, look, they're popping up. I'm actually not turned off, but I'm just not resonating with everything like I did. Imagine if you took every single thought that popped into your head and you fixed on it and you analyzed it. Can you imagine how...

miserable we would be, how we would get nothing done. if you can treat every thought that way as irrelevant, almost as unnecessary, I mean, it doesn't mean we can't plan, it doesn't mean we can't exist and do and be. You're not your thoughts. You're not your thoughts. important. mean, can't be, you? Scientifically you can't be, really. I love the exploration around what we would all do when we're having those big feelings and sometimes it can be overwhelming.

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Can we just be with that and be okay? Yeah. You know, it's okay because we all feel it. That's really what I got from that exploration just then. Coming back to you and the songs and I just wondered on that Hank Williams song, what creative inspiration you got from all of that. I just love the sound of it really. love the beat up guitar and the simplicity of it. Definitely a mood. It probably had quite an influence on the way that I would...

try and write something or perform something. There's a real simplicity to it. It's deceptively simple. I quite like that. You know, it's just happening. I'm experiencing that in your music, so I mean, I always didn't need to ask that question, to be honest. There's something about it that captures me, captures the mood. It just sounds cool, doesn't it? Yeah. So you have a song two? As I said, many, many songs, aren't there? But A Simple Twist of Fate by Bob Dylan from Blood on the Tracks. Alrighty.

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Yeah, it's following a pattern, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, it is following a pattern. Yeah, I love that song. I think, well, the whole record, that that's from Blood on the Tracks, it's just such a beautiful, beautiful album. I've got a really big question for you. Who were you in relation to that To the song? Yeah. Well, I think it's such a bittersweet, romantic piece of music. He's painting these pictures of this couple that get together and then they walk by the canal and they go to the hotel and...

kills me when he woke up, the room was bare, didn't see her anyway, he told himself he didn't care. Through the window, he's open wide. It's very beautiful, even though it's sad. I think as a musician, you are inherently a bit romantic. You can't avoid that really, especially if you're a guitar player. It just resonated with me. As I listened and listened to it, I realised he's done something so beautiful by this because he's depersonalised it.

he doesn't pour his heart out at all until the last verse. And then he just puts that little twist, which is so powerful, and he questions, know, people tell me it's a sin to know and feel too much. I probably was the person saying that at that moment, the narrator, I'm kind of going, yeah, it's not a sin, is it, to know and feel these things, it's part of life. And if Bob Dylan's loved and lost and got through it, I can. You know, and I suppose it's a bit of that.

And I just love the sound of it and the pictures that it paints in my mind. It is a journey, isn't it? Yeah, that idea of a romantic encounter and maybe it's something that's not supposed to last forever but it's still part of your life. It's got all of that in it. It doesn't really answer your question, it? Well, yeah, it does. Because what you're bringing is the idea of life just takes a load of different turns. And then there's that control word we all think that we can...

make a big difference to that. And so we get so involved in trying to change the nature of things. It challenges us, right? Definitely. If you're seeing yourself as the narrator in that story and relating to it, it's kind of like you say Bob Dylan's gone through it. Everybody's gone through a version of it. And when you're in it, you do feel like it's just you. You feel really alone and lost and, you know, your guts hanging out on the sidewalk. But actually,

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you're kind of not and it will get better. And also it's not anyone's fault. No, it's nobody's fault. Nobody's what I mean? It's not about that. It's so many complicated things go into human relations. And what if we could just embrace that idea that everything's unfolding perfectly regardless of how uncomfortable it is. Which is a really hard realisation, but it is kind of true. It's a bit like I said earlier, you you haven't got to the end of the book. It's okay. It's very romantic, that song as well. There's something about the...

travelling minstrel about it that I just forget. I just think it's wonderful. If I were to ask a question how it's helped you, I think you've already explained that, which is like, it's the sense of that isolation that we all feel at different times isn't real. No, it's unique to you in the sense that the individual or whatever the loss is going on is unique to you, but the feeling is a shared one for anyone that's got a heart and that's most people. It is most people, yeah.

That's the thing about music, isn't it wonderful that you can have somewhere to put a thought or a feeling and an emotion that isn't just taking it out on the squash court or whatever. You can actually put something somewhere and you know not all of it is going to turn out to be as good as that, know. Yeah. It's pretty good. you can still do it and you know what you might heal yourself through it. Write a poem, write something down, know. Just write down what you're feeling. Write down what you're feeling, you know.

it'll help and you might come back to it go, my God, what was I thinking? But that in itself is beautiful because it's all moving, it's all changing all the time. The other thing that I've taken from those times where I've been in those places is that if you were recovering from heartache or loss or something not great, some of it's joyous. The rebuilding of learning to like yourself and love yourself is really...

powerful stuff. Yeah. And then you forget it again and then you go around and around again but it's not all doom and gloom. Something that really helps me is remembering that this is a huge space of growth for me right now. I can't figure or fathom it and it doesn't feel like it but you always look back and go whoa I grew through something. And you're a damn sight healthier to just have that broken moment than trying to pretend that it doesn't touch you and that doesn't really lead to... No.

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So true. I don't think. I can even bring a powerful example of that actually. And it is disclosure, but it's okay because we have permission from our daughter. She went through a lot at a certain time in her life when, you know, she really didn't want to be here and everything was too much. And for us as parents, we were in crisis. We didn't know whether we were coming or going. So some day you just thought, can we get through this?

We managed to hold on somehow and we did a lot of work, our own work by the way, and our child benefited from us doing our own work. But what huge growth and what huge connection we now have as a result of something like that, which was catastrophic. There are so many examples, I'm sure everybody's got their own personal examples. In the moment, you just think you just really can't go on. I'm sure we've all felt like that at certain points and it's a question of what you do in those moments and how you react.

We were talking about it earlier about sitting in the feeling, weren't we? Yeah. You know, that's an important part. It is, but in those moments where it's all too much, it's like sometimes that sentiment is just to escape, isn't it? Or sometimes just to create yourself a bit of space before you can come to that point is really helpful. When people are in those really dark places and they're overwhelmed, I think just a little bit of focus and sometimes maybe the focus is, well...

Bob Dylan's gone through it. You know, maybe it is as simple as Adam Phillips has gone through it. okay. All right, this too shall pass, as they say. That's a powerful pause right there, isn't it? Completely. I think that thing of perspective that you can get to once you've gone through the falling apart bit, you gain perspective and then that's a really important thing. It is a connection with other people. Exactly. It matters so much because, you know, for us it was like, wow, other people have gone through this. We thought we were the only ones.

It was, yeah, felt very much like it was into the unknown. Yeah, yeah, and then you go, okay, no, there's communities for people in the situation we're in. okay, let's just check in with that then and take what we need from it. Yeah, you have to do it alone, but you have to do it with others too. Talk about it. Yeah. Or just pick up the phone and call a complete stranger who's there to help you. I've called the Samaritans.

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in my life and thank God for them. One of the resources for us when we were going through it was Childline and all of those kind of places like Young Minds, they point you, they signpost you. It is helpful. Imagine the times when none of that was in place. Got to be thankful really. do. Should I tell you my Bob Dylan dream? you must now. It's fabulous. when I've never been in this presence of Bob Dylan he's a bit of a hero to me.

had this dream and I had this dream that, funnily enough, when I was in a bit of a, having a bit of a bad time with things, and this dream came to me. In my dream, I'd inexplicably been given the gig with Bob Dylan. Because it was a dream, it wasn't like I had a phone call or someone had said, you know, you've got to learn this, to be here, fly you to here, none of that. I just was there, I just walked through a door and I was on stage and I was playing something and I'd never heard it before and I was kind of playing and there was like...

a segue into another tune. There were like four downbeats, quite quick. And I really liked major triads, simple chords, but they were kind of dissonant and I just had never heard it. And I said, is that a G to a... And I asked the keyboard player and the keyboard player, yeah, it's just, and as the keyboard player went to tell me what it is, I looked around him and I heard this voice and I saw Bob Dylan and his manager stood like six feet from me. And Bob Dylan kind of had his arms crossed in a cowboy hat.

And he turned to his manager and he said, I got fired instantly on spot basically. He goes, get me some sort of, like that. And I remember going, hang on, hang on, what? And then eight year old me just crumbled. And I sort of got down to kind of take my guitar lead out of the amp. And as I looked to my left, my eldest son, Ruben was stood there. And Ruben went, dad, I said, yeah, he goes, what are you doing? He goes, well, I'm going.

And he said, well, that's not fair, Dad. You've never heard the piece of music before. Don't let anyone speak to you like that. You're brilliant. Brilliant. And I went and I stood back up and I went and I leaned over to assert myself with Bob. And Bob wasn't there anymore. Bob turned into this little brat in a baseball cap. he was about nine years old, this little kid. All kind of puffed up with a big jewellery. And he wasn't anyone.

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at all. I was a bit confused but I just about to berate him and then I woke up and I thought that's just a brilliant dream isn't That's brilliant, it says so much in It says loads doesn't it? Yeah. Inner confidence and all of it you know but Reuben in power he just said dad come on. Bless him. I think it's great dream isn't That's brilliant. Have you told him about that? Yeah yeah yeah I told him. You're inner child met him at the same age right? That's right. That's so cool.

And it was just like that thing of facing the fear. Yeah. the thing that's hard to, know, assertion's been quite hard to me in my life, but, I went to do it and it all crumbled into a different scene. I don't think Bob's gonna listen to this. You never know though. You just don't know. So what's song number three? Are you ready for that one? There is a real theme here with heartache and loss, but this one, I think it's up there with Dylan lyrically. It's a perfect lyric and also three chords, man. He writes the whole song is a...

three chords. The way he does it is amazing and I think he kind of sums up sort of the human condition, sort of love. Anyway it's a song by Bruce Springsteen called One Step Up. Let's hear it.

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As a songwriter, it's just, it's up there because he just paints these pictures of brokenness. It's very authentic. It's very authentic. And it is Americana. He's American. is, but you know, I woke up this morning, you know, the house was cold. Check the furnace. wasn't burning. When it hopped in my old Ford, kicked the engine. It wasn't turning. We've been teaching each other some hard lessons lately. There's all this kind of background to this. There's obviously a very painful situation here. And then the next verse, he's like, everything's dysfunction. The bird's not singing.

Isn't that how it goes? outside the church in June, there's nothing going good. And then when he gets to the middle, just, when he is one line where he sings, I look at myself, I don't see the man I wanted to be. And it's pretty, that just made me. Yeah, it's pretty heavy. It's pretty heavy. We put so much pressure on ourselves, don't we? We really do have a sense of, we've got an agenda for ourselves all the time. And I think with so much pressure to succeed, to be

this be that it's not really fair on people really and everything's very in the way we're fed information yeah here's the soundbite of something horrific plane crash now anyway in other news yeah that's how all our lives are being yeah let's move on and it's a little bit crazy you know just you know just just trying to stand up right yeah pay some bills or

whatever it is, it's all just noise. But you know what you said earlier when I picked up my guitar I lost three hours and it was gone. Isn't that beautiful? Tell me about that. I haven't done it for a while in that sense but I was just messing around trying to create something and you know I just realized that time passed. I felt so alive. Well you know that feeling when you first, I don't know if it's just me, when you first wake up in the morning and there's that millisecond sometimes.

before my children jumped on me, but there's a millisecond where you kind of don't know, not just where you are, but you don't know who you are sometimes. have this like, don't, nothing's making much sense. And I always, when that happens, the first thing comes to me is a number. When I've grasped, okay, I'm alive. This all happens in a blink of an eye, but you know, and then there's a number, I always think, it's okay, I'm in my 30s. I always have this thought, I'm in my 30s, and I go, my God, I'm really on a-

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30s and then I wake up, no I'm 53 and I open my eyes and go but I've got a Buddhist friend I was telling that story to and they were saying to me that's who you really are. When all the other things haven't come in. That's the real you, that's the breathing you, that's the in the body you. You know you're alive and you're aware of awareness but nothing else has arrived yet. Magic. It's like you've got beneath this conscious.

Yeah, there's going on all the time and when you're feeling pretty low and lost just try and realize that sensation that leg on sofa breathing. Body's breathing itself. Although someone told me a mental thing the other day, they were talking to me about atoms because I'm not very scientific. They're saying that don't atoms repel? Aren't we technically hovering just slightly above the sofa? Is that true? I've no idea. I know is that... Apparently that's a thing if you were Nothing's actually touching anything. Yeah.

completely blown my tiny mind. You can follow that through quantum physics and the idea that matter doesn't even exist, know, there's nothing that just suggests that it's anything more than space. If you picture the space in this room, we're all existing within the space, and that's been compared to conscious awareness, and everything and the thoughts that come in and the objects that come in, you know, effectively you are the space and the thoughts are coming in.

into the space and what you see and what you witness is coming into the space but you are the space and that's quite out of the contemplation. Knew my physics A level would come in handy Brilliant. Have you ever had that moment where you wake up, I can wake up and then you know there's no thought there's nothing but I'm definitely not in a sleep state anymore and then the second I recognize it

All the noise. It all appears. So I'm learning to try and do that in reverse. So the noise comes in and then I try and notice that whole, okay, there's a load of chatter that didn't exist prior. So I wonder how it might be to just silence, you know, it takes practice, but it is doable, right? That's a new phenomenon for me, really. It's only really happened to me in the last couple of years. The thing about waking up and then having a

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period of a few seconds where there's nothing and then being conscious of everything piling in. It does though doesn't it? actually realise it. starts to just appear like my god and there's that you know. And if you went down the rabbit hole with any one of those thoughts sometimes you might get one that's just not leaving you alone and I think you touched on this earlier going into a bit of an inquiry with that it was just like well that matters to me because...

Okay, that's the worst case scenario, that could happen. And then what? And ultimately you end up in a place where it's like, it's okay, and then you can turn it on its head and go, is this actually true? So these little inquiries I've found that you can really drill all the way down to the bottom. You think you're gonna get to a place that's horrendous. Terrible, terrible things might happen, but the truth of it is, by the time you've explored it that far, there's a part of you that goes, okay, seriously? And you're prophesizing on things without all the info, you it's...

that's not a given that that's where you go, you know? It's like you can be so worried about a lot of things that probably don't happen. It's a famous quote, it? It as a repound or someone, I'll never remember the quote, but my life was basically a series of terrible, events, know, many of which never happened. I do it all the time. You do this rumination and it just takes over your whole persona, right? Yeah. It's a Mark Twain, isn't it? It's a Mark

The Ezra Palme one's very good though, it's why make the same mistake twice when there's so many new ones you could make. Yeah, that's good enough. Music's good for so many reasons. On that note, I would like to ask you about that whole theme of music and the three songs that you've brought today have very much been about storytelling and kind of every man's experience of the day to day.

And I'm getting a real sense of music being a kind of companion to you, something that walks alongside you. I wondered, what does that mean in the grand scheme of the idea of music and trauma coming back to the title of this podcast? For me, I can't analyse it or come up with a definitive reason why, but I think I could liken it to, you know, if you watch a great play or you read an amazing book or you hear a great piece of music, you're plugged in to something.

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that life's all about. You're plugged into something emotionally. And when it's art and when it's good, you're not being force-fed the sanitized version, the shelf version, you know, something of depth. And that doesn't need to be particularly musically brilliant either. It might be an amazing piece of classical music. It might be a punk track. It doesn't matter what it is. But if you resonate, which I seem to do, I feel more alive. And if I feel more alive, I feel like I'm of purpose and I'm connected.

So it doesn't make me feel really, really sad or depressed. It might bring up those emotions. I listened to that then and it made me feel that. But it makes me feel a shared thing. Like, yeah, he's expressing something that I feel inside. Or he's expressing something that I wish I could have had the skill to put in that middle eight when he says that lyric or whatever it is. Or played that solo or whatever it is that's going on. There's something else being shared and that's good.

It is good. I was just wondering, because you've got a unique perspective when you've stood on so many stages with so many different artists and looked out to the thousands of people in the audience sometimes. What is your experience of witnessing those people? It's very, very powerful. And it needn't be that big stage either. It could be intimate. And you just realise that this is meaning something in this moment. It's really just as simple as people have shown them to be entertained. Yeah. We all know what it's like to in an audience and really connect.

with the moment. I remember being in the Hammersmith Odeon, I was about 16 hearing Carlos Santana. I remember just one moment being felt like it was a tunnel. It was like nobody there. was like no one there. was just in a tunnel listening to this thing from another world and that's beautiful. Yes, it's a collective experience. is a collective experience and there's just a mutual understanding.

Why do think about all the bands you've played in, that connection alone, right, just the people you play with? Absolutely, and I've been lucky really, I've worked with people that have substance, know, I've done my fair share of more pop stuff on records too, but it's always something in there, you know, and that's the other thing I've learnt is not to be judgy about it. That effect I'm getting from Hank Williams, someone might be getting that from, I don't know, something that I necessarily wouldn't, you know, can't be sort of...

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judgey about it. It's true isn't it? People are responding for the right reason. Yeah people are called to different things in different ways. I always cry in the bodyguard when Whitney Houston runs into Kevin Costner's arms right and that is a contrived Hollywood moment if ever there was one. But I tell you I cry. It matters to you. Do you know what mean? So there's no real way of defining this stuff. Try and remember you're plugged in at that point.

You're plugged in. So it's touching you and it's moving you because you matter, you're plugged in because you're part of all of this. And you matter. You might not be able to see it or accept it or quantify it. And sometimes we just got to be a bit brave and we stick our hand up and say, hey, I need a moment. I need a bit of help. I think that's something that we've all begun to find really, really difficult to do. You don't need to be going through ghastly stuff to have a struggle. But when you see people functioning, going through ghastly stuff.

It's inspirational. When you see that and you go, God, if they can blooming function with that going on, you know, it doesn't negate the fact that you're in turmoil. Do you agree with the idea that music helps you experience your feelings? Yeah. Yeah. It can unlock the door, can't it? You know, you could think, OK, I've got that one sorted and then something happens, a note gets played or a lyric gets said and you're like, wow, I'm straight back there. You know? Yeah. I find those pieces of music that

just take me straight back to certain points. That's sort fascinating. It is fascinating because how does it do that? I know exactly what you mean. How does it do that? It's whatever we haven't integrated from our childhoods. Those are our pain points, Which is why it matters so much that we sit in it. Because once we sit in it, it integrates, it disperses, as you said before. Yeah. And then that charge is less and less. And so our reactivity around it becomes less and less over time. It's a tough thing to do, though, isn't it?

I've got a playlist called grief, which is like when it comes it hits hard and all of the songs. But it's okay. You can feel it. You can have a good cry or even if you can't bring yourself to tears, you can have an experience of that depth of sadness and then you can release yourself and then you can go get a cup of tea and then maybe you can go back and do a little bit more. You can keep yourself safe in amongst people. And so, you know, some of those things just, they never go away, but the suffering has eased, you know, it's like,

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Yes, sadness. You and I were talking about the ups and downs. Completely. They have to exist, but can we learn to just not see them as good and bad? As my departed grandmother used to say to me on Christmas morning, she'd always have a glass of sherry on Christmas morning and she'd go...

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she'd go, you know what? You can't have the sunshine without the rain. And it's pretty true. And I think there's wisdom in the ages as well. yeah. Our elders know... Through wars. Can we just listen? Like a challenge to any father, really, but it's that thing of you just don't want to think of your kids suffering in any way, and there's going to be times where they're going to be.

Heartbroken and stuff. don't know what I want to be of use, know, listen to them a lot, I guess. My dear friend is a lot older than me in years and possibly young looking. I remember saying to him when, before I had kids, I know that moment. I've had that moment when, whatever age, it happens a few times when you wake up and you feel, help. Yeah. You know, I don't want to bring someone into the world. I don't really want to.

He turned to me rather one of you said, but they're not you. They won't be you. There'll be a version of you. But they weren't that, you know, and I thought that was really beautiful. Yeah, yeah. It kind of sums it up really. Is there anything else that you'd like to bring today before we start to wrap up, Adam? Because this conversation has been such a beautiful experience for me. Just to thank you really, because it's been quite fun.

for me too and you know I don't always have massive amounts of time to focus in on you know like all of us you know there's stuff going on and generally that's quite healthy because you know left behind devices I'd just wallow but you know it's really nice to chat and talk about music and chat about good important stuff and I just hope really if anyone is tuning in that they get something warm and yeah

helpful from all of this. We've certainly got a great deal from this today. It's really important and thank you for Thank you, Adam. Thank you. inviting me to waffle on. So we know that people can find you on Spotify, Apple Music, Adam Phillips and that beautiful album called Let It Go. Yes, Let It Go has got a picture of a big long highway in America on it. Strongly suggest people go and check that out. That's very kind.

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Also, if you do find yourself enjoying any of these episodes, please consider making a small donation to the charities which we're supporting, which are Nordorf & Robbins Music Therapy or Youth Music UK. Links are on the show notes. You said that there was a Wikipedia page. There is a Wikipedia page on me, So maybe Which nearly all of it is true. There's something in there that isn't. There's something where they've confused me with some other.

Yeah, I'll get that as well. Thank you, Adam. And we're going to play out with which song we're going to play out with. a point, isn't it? What should I play out with off that record? What do you think? Well, you know which one I like. We'll play that one then. Play A Song for Every Man OK, so we're going to play out with A Song for Every Man by Adam Phillips. And we're so grateful. Cannot thank you enough. Thank you everybody for listening, whoever you are. Let's go and have some dinner. Let's do that. Thank you so much. Thank you.

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Okay, here's the legal stuff. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. We are not licensed therapists and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, psychotherapist or other qualified professional. See you next time.